Help Researching my Great Grandad - Ernest Pilling (6th Dragoon Guards)

[TomP]

Hi all

Would anybody be able to assist me in researching my Great Grandfather? Unfortunately I don't know his service number (which is a huge pain I appreciate) but my late Grandad never did either so we never managed to do the research about his Dad when he was alive which I deeply regret. 

All I do know is that he was in the 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) when we have the photo's of him, and he spoke to my Late grandad about this unit - but I have no idea whether he deployed abroad with the same unit. The family has always been told as well that he was wounded and suffered with this post-war. 

His address during the war was 272 Market Street, Whitworth, Rochdale, Lancashire. Our family still lives in Rochdale. 

I'm not 100% sure of what his entitlement would have been as I can't be 100% sure when he joined up (as in whether its likely a trio or pair etc...) and all we really have of his still are the attached postcards of him and his comrades. So the only date I know he was 100% in the Army is October 1916 when he sent one of the attached postcards from his billet in Canterbury back home to his dad in Whitworth about him coming home on leave.

Thanks in advance for any help and I appreciate I'm asking for a small miracle! If nothing else enjoy the period pictures of my Great Grandad Ernest. In the group photo's he is on the far right standing up and sat crossed legged on the far right on the front row of the other.
 

Tom

 

 

 

 

[Ken Lees]

The nearest I can find is:

Pte Ernest Pilling, 4th Dragoon Guards

Service numbers GS/21782 and D/16888

[TomP]

46 minutes ago, Ken Lees said:

The nearest I can find is:

Pte Ernest Pilling, 4th Dragoon Guards

Service numbers GS/21782 and D/16888

Hi Ken

Thanks for your reply. I have had this chap pointed out as a possibility previously but since we have photo's of him definitely in the 6th Dragoons surely his record would retain his unit even if he transferred to the 4th later?

I have also had 52434 Ernest Pilling of the Machine Gun Corps Cavalry as a possibility too, possibly drafted from the 6th Dragoons into the MGCC but again wouldn't there be some record of the 6th DG? 

I wish there was some way of using his address to assist in the search as well but thus far I have been stumped. 

Thanks again
Tom

[RussT]

Just now, TomP said:

but since we have photo's of him definitely in the 6th Dragoons surely his record would retain his unit even if he transferred to the 4th later?

Not if he didn't serve overseas with the 6th. His Medal Index Card, for example, would only show the unit(s) he served with overseas.

So perhaps he was transferred from the 6th to the 4th before deploying overseas?

Regards

Russ

[TomP]

2 hours ago, RussT said:

Not if he didn't serve overseas with the 6th. His Medal Index Card, for example, would only show the unit(s) he served with overseas.

 

Thanks Russ

By the sounds of it then, I would need to find his full service record & attestation to see if they matched up? Is it possible that all the things I would need were destroyed by the bombing in 1940?

I have requested records from the MOD but as I have so little to go on apart from Name and birthplace (and regiment at a push) then I am worried it will come to nothing anyway!

[RussT]

2 minutes ago, TomP said:

By the sounds of it then, I would need to find his full service record & attestation to see if they matched up? Is it possible that all the things I would need were destroyed by the bombing in 1940?

I have had a look for possible Service Records but I did not find any - so it looks like his was one of the many which were destroyed in WW2.

Both the candidates suggested above - 4/DG and MGCC look like good possibilities. I've been trying all sorts to try and link these men to your man but so far without success.

Do you know the whereabouts of any Medals for him? If so, any WW1 Medals will have his Unit/Number impressed upon them.

Regards

Russ

[TomP]

5 minutes ago, RussT said:

I have had a look for possible Service Records but I did not find any - so it looks like his was one of the many which were destroyed in WW2.

Both the candidates suggested above - 4/DG and MGCC look like good possibilities. I've been trying all sorts to try and link these men to your man but so far without success.

Do you know the whereabouts of any Medals for him? If so, any WW1 Medals will have his Unit/Number impressed upon them.

That would be a real shame if the records are gone for good. I'm grateful I at least have the pictures but really hope to get more. 

Even if I was to access Census records (I think I can access for free at local libraries?) and confirm Ernest's address post-war this would help in terms of tying him to the services would it? How about possible military pension records, could this be something where an address could be cross referenced for either the 4DG or MGCC chaps?

RE the medals, we do not have them I'm afraid. That would have made life much easier from the outset. I regularly search online to see if they get listed but I have all but lost hope they will turn up again. Chances are they're in a collection and the owner is unaware I'm even searching for them.

[Ken Lees]

I may be wrong, but the dress uniform suggests to me a regular soldier, as I don't think 'war service only' men were issued with ceremonial uniform.

If that's the case, he may have served on beyond 1921, and if he did, his service record will be with the MoD/TNA.

Lots of 'ifs', but it's a chance.

Edited 12 January by Ken Lees

[kenf48]

The Absent Voters List for Rochdale (if it survives) may tell you his unit when the list was compiled in 1918.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

If he was appealing to the Local Tribunal as in the newspaper cutting posted above then he did not join the Army until after 1916

The 1921 Census has him back home at 272 Market Street with mother and father and working as a plasterer's labourer

Another problem you have is many of the later recruits to the Cavalry were transferred to the Infantry from Reserve Cavalry Regiments.

 

 

[PRC]

Looks like this is how your man is indexed at Whitworth on the 1921 Census of England & Wales, (taken on the 4th June), according to FindMyPast.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Other household members appear to be:-

Andrew Pilling, born c1856, Yorkshire
Mary A L Pilling, born c1864 Upper Tean, Staffordshire
One other

So unless he was home on leave, looks unlikely he was still in the Army. Address however may help with tracking down an entry in the Absent Voters List.

16 minutes ago, Ken Lees said:

I may be wrong, but the dress uniform suggests to me a regular soldier, as I don't think 'war service only' men were issued with ceremonial uniform.

I believe we've had instances before now where wartime recruits were given a "photo-opportunity" to wear the moth-balled uniforms which then went back into storage. He may never have been issued with such a uniform on a routine basis.

Had a quick try of the British Newspaper site to see if came up with anything in the Official Casualty lists for those service numbers, but drew a blank. For the period that would be relevant to this man, the Official Casualty list showed a place of residence of the next of kin informed. It was only a basic city \ town \ village level but it might have helped you eliminate one of the potential candidates.

Cheers,
Peter

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, Ken Lees said:

Pte Ernest Pilling, 4th Dragoon Guards

Service numbers GS/21782 and D/16888

Norman Morris GS/21766 and D/16884 4th Dragoon Guarda kia 21.03.1918 was from Bury bot a million miles from Rochdale (7 to be precise!)

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/299558/n-morris/

It appears the GS/numbers were also allocated to the 3rd and 6th Dragoon Guards (according to the Roll) but first entered theatre for Pilling (and Morris) as stated was the 4th.

[Allan1892]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

The Absent Voters List for Rochdale (if it survives) may tell you his unit when the list was compiled in 1918.

Checked this out earlier this afternoon -- looked at all surnames of Pilling living in Lancashire (several including an Ernest who lived in Wigan) but none was down as being in the Dragoons.

[TomP]

Thank you Ken L, Ken F, Peter and Allan for your replies. I really appreciate all your help so far!

@PRC- the census stuff confirms what I thought thank you. I’ve actually visited Andrew’s (his father) grave up in Whitworth - he happens to be the name sake for my own dad Andrew Pilling. So we know Ernest definitely returned to Whitworth after the war and appears from other posts that by late 1918 he might not still have been in the forces too (based on the absent voters post from Allan). The family tale (I only say this as I’m currently without proof) of him being wounded could account for this. I presume it’s not possible to do name searches of wound badge records and possibly work backwards that way with surname and then potential 4/6 DG or MGCC? 
 

@kenf48 - that is really interesting, so the Bury chap has service numbers extremely close to one of our potential Soldiers. Are there any implications of this in terms of enlisting at a similar enlistment office/at the same time? Although if the theory about him being in the 6th DG and then transferring to the 4th DG for the medal index cards details, I would be unsure of what this could mean. 
 

Based on all of the above then does anybody think there are any further avenues to explore? I have requested records from the MOD but I understand this can take up to a year - plus without an actual service number I’m sure is his I have a feeling they will come back and say they’ve had no luck anyway. 
 

Thank you all for your continued help!

Tom

 

Edited 12 January by TomP

[TomP]

Just on a slightly unrelated note (and the mentions of him possibly being in the 4th DG rather than 6th. And with Ken F’s similar service numbers to one of my possible relatives) - I spotted on the first of the group photos with my Great Grandad (seated front right), there also appears to be soldiers of the 3rd Dragoon Guards:

 

 

Maybe I’m just seeing it because I'm looking for it as it’s also on the Royal Welch Fusiliers. 

 

 

Edited 12 January by TomP

[PRC]

53 minutes ago, TomP said:

So we know Ernest definitely returned to Whitworth after the war and appears from other posts that by late 1918 he might not still have been in the forces too

The 1918 Representation of the Peoples Act is nowadays chiefly remembered for giving some woman the vote, but at the time it's biggest impact was extending the vote to all males aged 21 and over - and for those in the Armed Forces, over 18 - not just the householders and property owners. Added to that was the fact that the last electoral registers in the UK were prepared for use in 1915, and that was of a much, much smaller electoral base. Work on drawing up the new electoral registers could not start until the Act had received Royal Assent, which it did in February 1918.  While working on something else I came across a newspaper report from a municipal council in the West Midlands which had dedicated two clerks to try and contact as many of the men registered or known to be serving according to groups like the Soldiers and Sailors Families Association.  The subsequent report by the Clerk of the Electoral Register was that they believed they had signed up over 50% of those eligible to vote by the end of May - and note that period pretty much co-incided with the German Spring Offensive - and that figure was significantly higher than the national average.

Absense from the 1918 AVL therefore doesn't mean that the soldier wasn't serving - it could simply be that neither they or their family, (another source for men being registered as AV's), were bothered about having a parliamentary vote.

Some electoral districts did try the exercise again,  and so there can be an autumn AVL, but essentially there was no change in the way that names were solicited. Only with the 1919 AVL were the armed forces specifically involved, by which point, with the rapid downsizing, the AVL loses a lot of it's value and it's worth looking at the main Electoral Register to see if that effectively confirms a man has been discharged.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 12 January by PRC
Typo

[kenf48]

The postcard is postmarked ‘Canterbury’ I.e. 3rd Reserve Regiment of Cavalry trained men for the 3rd and 6th DG

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-reserve-regiments-of-cavalry/

[TomP]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

Absense from the 1918 AVL therefore doesn't mean that the soldier wasn't serving - it could simply be that neither they or their family, (another source for men being registered as AV's), were bothered about having a parliamentary vote.

Once again really interesting, thanks Peter. 

[TomP]

6 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The postcard is postmarked ‘Canterbury’ I.e. 3rd Reserve Regiment of Cavalry trained men for the 3rd and 6th DG

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-reserve-regiments-of-cavalry/

Fascinating, maybe that could explain the 4th DG then?

The link you posted advises the 3rd reserve regiment was ‘Was absorbed into new 6th Reserve Regiment early in 1917’

and then the new 6th reserve regiment: ‘Formed early 1917 at Tidworth. Trained men for the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th Dragoon Guards’ 

Credit: Long Long Trail: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-reserve-regiments-of-cavalry/

 

Unless I’ve got the wrong end of the stick….

 

Cheers

Tom

[PRC]

57 minutes ago, TomP said:

I presume it’s not possible to do name searches of wound badge records and possibly work backwards that way with surname and then potential 4/6 DG or MGCC? 

There were wound stripes that in the later years of the war officers and other ranks could be authorised to wear on the cuff of their left sleeve, (including, retrospectively, wounds received earlier in the war), but there was no such thing as a wound badge. I suspect you mean the Silver War Badge.

These were introduced in September 1916 and were available to all those who had been honourably discharged. The fact that the overwhelming majority probably went to those no longer fit for military service because of wounds or sickness tends to lead to the confusion that somehow wounding or ill-health must be involved. They were intended in part as a signal to the white feather brigade that a man had done his part. There hasn't been evidence to suggest either man received the Silver War Badge.

1 hour ago, TomP said:

I have requested records from the MOD but I understand this can take up to a year -

They will only have records if he served in 1921 or later. Have tou been able to establish a date of birth for him yet - a few years back the Ministry of Defence published a list of those born before the end of 1900 and whose records they still retained. While the list is subsequently known to be incomplete, it would be a good thing to check out.

1 hour ago, TomP said:

Maybe I’m just seeing it because I'm looking for it as it’s also on the Royal Welch Fusiliers. 

The Prince of Wales feathers are quite common in regiment badges and insignia - complications sometime arise however when the Prince becomes the King!

24 minutes ago, TomP said:

The link you posted advises the 3rd reserve regiment was ‘Was absorbed into new 6th Reserve Regiment early in 1917’

and then the new 6th reserve regiment: ‘Formed early 1917 at Tidworth. Trained men for the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th Dragoon Guards’ 

Just a bit of background. After 1907 the Corps of Dragoons, Hussars and Lancers all started a new service numbering range. Prior to that each Regiment of Dragoons, etc, had their own numbering range. So if a man changed regiment prior to 1907 he also got a new service number. So by the time of the Great War the bulk of those serving with the Dragoon Guards had a number from the new series, and could be moved between the various Regiments and the related reserve regiments without needing to be renumbered. After being conscripted Ernest could have spent all his time with one regiment in the UK or moved through several.

Cheers,
Peter

[corisande]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Have you been able to establish a date of birth for him yet

Working back from 1911 census at 272 Market Street Whitworth Nr Rochdale (Ancestry)

 

His bapt is therefore (Ancestry)

 

And is in BMD as being Jan / Mar 1893 birth

And playing with marriage cert, and 1939 register, he appears to have been born 3 Mar 1893

Edited 12 January by corisande

[PRC]

3 hours ago, corisande said:

he appears to have been born 3 Mar 1893

Thanks @corisande. No match in the MoD list - there wasn't even an E. Pilling at all.

Cheers,
Peter

[TomP]

Hi all

Thanks very much for all your responses. Based on the above I sense I am out of avenues! 
I’ve requested records but as you say above if he didn’t serve post 1921 then won’t return anything anyway. 
I have applied to join my local library as I’ve heard they may have access to sites such as Ancestry and Find my past etc. 

All the best

Tom