Enfield MK1 Type2 pattern 1888 Bayonet- HELP WITH MARKINGS

[shippingsteel]

Yes the absence of the Royal Cypher being the Crown/VR is a good point. On the single example it can be passed off as a light stamping and being worn off with age or polished out over time. But when you have the 2 related bayonets clearly without the Crown added then it becomes an extremely valid query.

Now it is not uncommon to see the P1888 bayonets from that era to be sometimes without the Crown. This was the time of the Volunteer regiments when the locally raised troops had to fund their own weaponry and kit. I believe the Militia units also fell into this category to a lesser extent. These privately purchased items did not go through the official channels so did not receive the normal stampings, Crown etc.

What is unusual in this case is the obvious official Army service, as shown by the regular Inspection markings, and still to be without the Crown VR. Those things don't usually go together.

What I am thinking is that these Irish Militia units were ordering their own kit and went straight to Sanderson (also being an independent Contractor) who was their closest manufacturer in Sheffield. A "batch" order is also supported by the exact same maker and dates shown on both examples ... these weren't issued randomly from Stores.

Now the Crown VR can be missing because the order was not through "official" channels ... or an alternative theory can be that it is missing as requested by the Irish Militia due to the inherent (err,cough) "cultural sensitivities".  My money is on the former being the most sensible explanation.

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

21 minutes ago, USRWB said:

@shippingsteel

@DarkMadder

And, because it's within the theme of this thread and I believe this is the right audience, I'm adding pictures of our other P1888's as well as our 1889 3-Rivet mounted on our 1895 Martini-Enfield Carbine (which started life in 1881 as a Martini-Henry Mk III). 

And that is exactly how these bayonets would have seen service. Being attached to the Martini-Enfield Artillery Carbine. The Magazine Lee Enfield whilst in regular service would have been above the "pay-rate" of the Militia.! Thanks for adding your photos. 

Cheers,  SS 

[4thGordons]

17 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

What is unusual in this case is the obvious official Army service, as shown by the regular Inspection markings, and still to be without the Crown VR. Those things don't usually go together.

Presumably this might be explained by the various reforms in the organization of Militia and Volunteer units ending in the creation of the TF in 1908 and the fact that in the Boer Wars (and WWI more obviously)  weapons which originated with and went overseas with militia/volunteer units, became absorbed into general army resupply pools and thus subject to inspection and reissue marking? The inspection dates here would seem to be consistent with this.

Chris

 

[shippingsteel]

Yes Chris they certainly were tumultuous times for the Militia units during that period. It was a case of organisation and re-organistion right up until 1908, then mostly disbandment with the few survivors being renamed into the Special Reserve.

Looking into the history of these Irish Artillery Militia units for any clues illustrates quite a big change occurred in 1899. This date is important as both Bayonets in question have this as their 1st regular Inspection marking.

https://hcvv.home.xs4all.nl/milweb/Great-Britain/Martillery/list-1902.html

"In 1899 the Royal Artillery was split into the Royal Field Artillery and the Royal Garrison Artillery. The Artillery Militia was incorporated in the latter."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Garrison_Artillery

So what I am thinking is that initially (1896) these bayonets were privately purchased by the Militia organisation ie. not through "official" channels therefore no Crown stamped.

Then later in1899 when they were incorporated into the RGA they came under the framework of regular Inspection, as can be seen by the '99, '00, '04, '07 reissue date stampings.

This seems to be the most realistic explanation given available evidence. These bayonets have provided quite the history lesson into Artillery Militia ... to myself at least, as without the research the questions remain unanswered.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 31 January by shippingsteel
add photo

[cheeseman64]

I just picked this Sanderson P1888 up today: an auction purchase. Similar to the bayonets discussed above, it's an 1896 dated (8 '96) example without a cypher. Some unfortunate pitting on the blade, but has the matching numbered scabbard. No re-issue stamps.

Regarding the 'DC' stamps on the other examples I can't help but notice that they both have the same slightly off horizontal mark on the 'C' that makes it almost appear as a lower case 'e'. I have no idea if that's relevant or not, or if it could be a stamp error of some kind, but it seems odd to me. The overall shape of it as a 'C' is a bit off to me as well. The way the top end curls in slightly and the bottom end points out more than curling up is different than I would have expected with the same font as the 'D'. Again, not sure if it means anything or just that I've got too much time on my hands to see things that aren't there.

Rod

[4thGordons]

I wonder if Sanderson (in particular) was a supplier to the Volunteer / Militia and later Territorial, Associations?

I too have at least two Sandersons without a cypher.

One (1897 manuf) which is my pride and joy unit marked to the 1/4th Gordons with a 1915 reissue date (the 1/4th were still using CLLEs and P1888s at Bellewaarde in Sept 1915)

and one (1901) which has not other reissue dates 

 

Edited 3 February by 4thGordons

[shippingsteel]

Chris ... "There are Known unknowns, and there are Unknown unknowns".! 

Regarding the new bayonet Cheeseman has posted - things get stranger still. 

Firstly with the DC stamping I think it is simply the case of how the stamping punch has been made, with the crosspiece joining the 2 letters being slightly imprinted as well. Don't worry I did notice it myself.!

Secondly, and this is the strange bit, the inspection marking and WD mark Cheeseman has shown on his Sanderson appear to me to be a R.Mole, Birmingham stamping.

They are unlike the normal Sanderson marks which should be Crown/S/25 or the like. The actual inspection marking is a B denoted number from RSAF Sparkbrook and normally seen on Mole bayonets from this period. Likewise with the WD marking, looks more like a Mole example. Something going on there ... perhaps sub-contracting to fill an order.?

Cheers,  SS 

[4thGordons]

28 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Chris ... "There are Known unknowns, and there are Unknown unknowns".! 

he actual inspection marking is a B denoted number from RSAF Sparkbrook and normally seen on Mole bayonets from this period. 

*** -- are you Dick Cheyney in disguise?

I should look this up before asking but... wasn't Sparkbrook and Italicised "B" ?  And regular Birmingham (as in BSA) a "B"?

That is my recollection.... but it's friday night........and I have been home for a while pouring cold ones.

I will dig out all my P'88s and check what I have I think I may have another without a cypher and if I recall correctly it may be stamped with a service number also --

Chris

 

 

[shippingsteel]

Chris you have been partaking, that is obvious. 

Firstly it was Donald Rumsfeld, but good try.! 

And secondly it was Sparkbrook with the capital B and then later when BSA was formed they used the italic B.

I know you know this on any given night ... but you ARE allowed one night off OK.! 

Cheers,  SS 

[4thGordons]

🤩 yeah the sparkbrook thing was a slip

but the Rumsfeld was a major error! 
i shall retire 🫨

Chris

[Dave66]

Of the 20 P1888’s I have, 4 are Sandersons.

4-94, unit marked to the 1st Kings Own Malta….Crown VR, all Sanderson Stamps

9-94, unit marked to 4th Siege Battery RGA…..Crown VR, all Sanderson Stamps

2-05, Mk111, plain….Crown ER, all Sanderson Stamps

2-99, unit marked 4th Volunteer South Wales Borderers….no crown, pics below.

I do have one marked to Yorkshire Militia RGA, that is an 1891 Wilkinson, and does have a Crown VR.

Dave.

Edited 3 February by Dave66

[cheeseman64]

16 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Chris ... "There are Known unknowns, and there are Unknown unknowns".! 

Regarding the new bayonet Cheeseman has posted - things get stranger still. 

Firstly with the DC stamping I think it is simply the case of how the stamping punch has been made, with the crosspiece joining the 2 letters being slightly imprinted as well. Don't worry I did notice it myself.!

Secondly, and this is the strange bit, the inspection marking and WD mark Cheeseman has shown on his Sanderson appear to me to be a R.Mole, Birmingham stamping.

They are unlike the normal Sanderson marks which should be Crown/S/25 or the like. The actual inspection marking is a B denoted number from RSAF Sparkbrook and normally seen on Mole bayonets from this period. Likewise with the WD marking, looks more like a Mole example. Something going on there ... perhaps sub-contracting to fill an order.?

Cheers,  SS 

I neglected to include the view of the short edge of the ricasso with what appear to be the Sanderson inspection stamps. Does that make sense with the B stamp? There are no re-issue dates. I have four other '88s that all have the same letter on each of their stamps.

[shippingsteel]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this. So we can see somewhat of a pattern emerging with Sanderson, who we know was an independent Contractor and the Northern most producer of bayonets in the country. They manufactured not only for the War Department / Regular Army but also for the Commercial market / Volunteers / Militia as well. As a Contractor they sold to whoever had the money, and in the late 19th Century with no major wars happening orders were at best "intermittent".

So we see the Cypher / Crown VR only being applied to orders / contracts through the official channels for regular Army use. Sales to the Volunteer and Militia battalions and regiments would have been organised directly and independently from the War Department so no Crown.

At the same time they were still supplying to the regular Army whenever they could under contract, and these bayonets are VERY heavily stamped with all the regular Acceptance, Inspection, Reissue and Cypher markings as expected. I have several Sanderson's in this basket but only because that's what I was collecting. See my example here which was a "file photo" I already had on the forum.!

As you can see with this example ALL the regular Inspection / Reissue markings are Crown B numeral stamps, which indicates this particular regiment was located in the North and the inspection was routinely undertaken (every 3 years) by a RSAF Sparkbrook inspector based in Birmingham.

Which gets me back to Cheeseman's bayonet with the very unusual Birmingham Acceptance markings. So it has all the standard Sanderson inspection marks applied during manufacture, denoted with the letter S. But in this particular case it appears that the Sanderson produced bayonet was sent down either to R.Mole & Sons for final Acceptance (which would be evidence of sub-contracting taking place) or alternatively to RSAF Sparkbrook for approval. No Crown and no further regimental stamps perhaps makes the latter less likely. At any rate it is very different.!

PS. Forgot to mention, one possibility for Sanderson being perhaps over-represented in the Volunteer / Militia market could be their location as the Northern most manufacturer and being the first port-of-call for all of those type units in the Northern half of the country. 

Also that the RSAF manufactories at Enfield and Sparkbrook possibly did not supply to the Volunteer / Militia units at all, and remained entirely focused on official government orders for weapons, as you might expect.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 5 February by shippingsteel

[trajan]

One possibility for DC.... Waterford Artillery Militia went on a regular basis, it seems, for training at Duncannon Castle.

[shippingsteel]

Here is another of these Irish Artillery Militia (Waterford/Wicklow) marked bayonets. Same orientation W.A.M. with a much larger rack number. Also has several reissue stampings but of main interest is that peculiar DC (Dublin Castle) inspection marking which is again matched to a '04 inspection date. 

Cheers,  SS 

Edited Wednesday at 09:39 by shippingsteel