Some pictures from my great grandfathers album, thought they were interesting. Have lots more

[Chuckhall905]

Got tons more pictures . Always was told he spent time in Billy bishops squadron. Would love to hear any info or see similar pictures of people’s relatives 

 

Edited 11 January by Chuckhall905

[Chuckhall905]

I got an old photo album of pictures, let me know if anyone wants to see them would love to share it

[PRC]

Hi @Chuckhall905

As well as the group shot of the officers of the 161st Canadian Infantry Battalion, two of the others look like they may be non-flight related. In the picture of C.S.H. and Bill B., C.S.H could possibly be wearing wings but nearly all of the appropriate area is covered by the sleeve of Bill - who certainly isn't wearing wings.

As a sucker for picture questions I've tried re-orientating and tidying so a uniform expert like @FROGSMILE can cast their eye over them and see if any nuggets can be extracted 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[TEW]

11 hours ago, Chuckhall905 said:

I got an old photo album of pictures, let me know if anyone wants to see them would love to share it

The more photos the better!

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @Chuckhall905

As well as the group shot of the officers of the 161st Canadian Infantry Battalion, two of the others look like they may be non-flight related. In the picture of C.S.H. and Bill B., C.S.H could possibly be wearing wings but nearly all of the appropriate area is covered by the sleeve of Bill - who certainly isn't wearing wings.

As a sucker for picture questions I've tried re-orientating and tidying so a uniform expert like @FROGSMILE can cast their eye over them and see if any nuggets can be extracted 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter, an interesting set of photos indeed.  The demonstration of affectionate regard in the right hand of the two photos you’ve realigned does show that the man behind in the frame has a set of pilots wings above his left breast pocket.  Although partially obscured by the foremost officer’s hand they are still clear enough to discern without any element of doubt.

The left hand photo seems to show the same officer with the aforementioned pilots wings, but earlier on in his service when he was still an regimental infantry officer with the 161st Canadian Overseas Battalion.  Apparently the unit recruited in Huron County, Ontario.  See:

1. https://huron.getarchive.net/collections/161st-huron-battalion-wwi

2.https://www.huronremembers.ca/about-161st-Huron-Battalion

Edited 11 January by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

One of the names written under this picture is "WESTERGARD", which I though would be a comparatively easy name to seach for.

But no AIR 76 record for anyone with that surname as an officer serving with the RAF.
No British Army officers long record or personal papers indexed at the UK National Archive for a Westergard.
No Canadian service records for anyone with the surname Westergard.
No Medal Index Card held at the National Archive for the Great War period for anyone wih the surname Westergard.
No-one on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database with the surname Westergard.
Apart from a Danish ship, a young lady in North Shields offering shorthand, typing and translation services, a delegate to an pre-war international conference and an American wrestler, the British Newspaper Archive is also fairly light on matches for the period 1910-1919.

But a check of the London Gazette brough up a Lieutenant A.N. WESTERGAARD, who was transferred to the Unemployed List of the Royal Air Force, (page 9137 has section header), with effect from the 12th July 1919 - Page 9140, London Gazette, 18th July 1919. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31463/page/9140/data.pdf

The is an AIR76 record for Alf Norman Westergaard, born 25th March 1899. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8240442

His only service overseas was with 60 Squadron, to which he was posted on the 8th June 1918. His home addess was Macoun, Saskatchewan, Canada.

By that time Billy Bishop was no longer with 60 Squadron.

Looks Alf was still serving with the Royal Canadian Air Force Reserve in the early days of WW2. https://recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/home/record?app=cangaz&IdNumber=6849&q="Alf Norman Westergaard"

That probably expalins why the Canadian Libraty & Archives have no Great War era service records for him.

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

Throwing another couple of names into the mix from the same photograph that Peter was looking at, Oliver is possibly Allan Reid Oliver, another Canadian, who was born on 25 March 1896 and who started out with the 1st Quebec Regiment before transferring to the RFC and joining 60 Squadron on 11 August 1918.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8211897

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/17718

http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redirect?app=pffww&id=551836&lang=eng

It looks like he went onto to have a distinguished postwar life in the Waterloo, Ontario region, dying on 5 February 1988.

https://generations.regionofwaterloo.ca/getperson.php?personID=I66428&tree=generations

Assuming that the writing under the photograph has been truncated on the right hand side, Johns is possibly Oliver Pruett Johnson, born 5 May 1895, who was posted to 60 Squadron on 19 July 1918. He appears to have been an American given the address of his next of kin, along with his regiment which is identified as USAS.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8277966

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/12714

There is also a Canadian connection, which is that his father was born in Ontario, Canada in 1863, before moving to the USA. He died in Phoenix, Arizona on 27 January 1969.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/207921903/oliver-pruett-johnson

Another photograph of Johnson serving with the 25th Aero Squadron of the USAS can be found on the following webpage.

https://parr-hooper.cmsmcq.com/2OD/photos/squadron-photos/

Edited 11 January by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

Interestingly the monoplane aircraft pictured in one of the photographs is Bristol M.1C Scout C5001, which still survives in Australia today, as the only survivor of the type. The same photograph can be found on this webpage, with a title that indicates it was taken at Marske-by-the-Sea, Yorkshire.

https://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2017/12/18/bristol-m-1c-scout/

[PRC]

@Chuckhall905 - any chance of a better copy of this image, as it will then give two pictures that have been identified as C.S.H. + Bill

Cheers,
Peter

[Chuckhall905]

On 11/01/2024 at 17:27, PRC said:

@Chuckhall905 - any chance of a better copy of this image, as it will then give two pictures that have been identified as C.S.H. + Bill

Cheers,
Peter

Here is a Better picture of that photo and another one with i believe is the same bill 

cheers

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Chuckhall905 said:

Here is a Better picture of that photo and another one with i believe is the same bill 

cheers

The lowermost photo gives a good view of the two types of authorised peacoat (aka ‘British Warm’), the more popular taupe cloth on the left and the drab on the right.  They were constructed from a heavy 32oz Melton and for extra warmth could be lined with angola, or even fur. 

[PRC]

Thank-you @Chuckhall905

Tried doing a comparison with some known images of Billy Bishop, along with the two images of what I believe is “Bill” from the pictures with C.S.H. and the left hand officer in the Lilbourne picture which I assume is the man you believe to be "Bill".

Firstly I have to say there is quite a difference in the various pictures taken of William Avery (“Billy”, “Bish”) Bishop, but ear shape, (inner and outer), position of ears on the head regardless of pose with tips below eyebrows, eyebrows, nose and lips all remain the same, and while hairline varies enormously, natural parting is always on the same side.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the currents owners.

Sources.

[1] Cadet William Bishop's yearbook photo at the Royal Military College of Canada, 1914 sourced Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Bishop#/media/File:Cadet_William_Avery_Bishop_1914_Stone_Frigate_1.JPG

[2] billy-bishop sourced from on this day https://www.onthisday.com/people/billy-bishop

[3] Bishop in the cockpit of his Nieuport 17, c. August 1917 sourced Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Bishop#/media/File:BillyBishop.jpg

[4] Billy Bishop sourced sps aviation https://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1754

[5]Winged_warfare_-_hunting_the_Huns_in_the_air_(1918) William Bishop sourced Wikipedia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Winged_warfare_-_hunting_the_Huns_in_the_air_%281918%29_%2814783541522%29.jpg

So looking at the three images you have provided and concentrating first of all on the ears:-

The two pictures of Bill with CSH show a similar ear shape. Inner ear shape has some similarity to Billy Bishop. But in both the angles we can see, the tips are above the eyebrows. The officer at Lilbourne appears to have different ear shape to “Bill” and Billy Bishop, and from this angle the tips are below the eyebrows.

As you can see from the pictures of Billy Bishop whatever else varies he seems to have preferred something growing on his top lip. The officer at Lilbourne appears clean-shaven there, and while I can’t be 100% sure because of shadows / quality of the imagery, I think the same is true of “Bill”.

“Bill’s” parting is the same is on the same side as Billy Bishop, but in the two images we have seems more like it is over his left eye, while Billy Bishops’ looks to be to the temple. Rest of the hairline of “Bill” is out of kilter with any of the pictures of Billy Bishop.

(Tentative) conclusions:-
The officer at Lilbourne is neither “Bill” or Billy Bishop.
“Bill \ Bill B” is unlikely to be Billy Bishop.

Other opinions will of course be available

Cheers,
Peter