help needed with cap badge

[Kev darby]

hello can anybody help with this cap badge. thank you

[Michelle Young]

Suffolk Regiment or Leicestershire Yeomanry. I’m leaning more to the Suffolk side of things. 

[DavidOwen]

Any clues as to his name Kev?

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

I’m leaning more to the Suffolk side of things. 

I was going to query that as the Suffolk Regiment badge I'm used to has a three towered castle and so there would not be a void as shown on the capbadge on this soldier. However while looking for comparative examples I see there are some of the Great War era online that have two towers. There is probably an explanation - although I couldn't readily find one  - and hopefully that explanation might tell us a bit more about the soldier as well. In the image below the three towered capbadge is on the left as you look at it, and the two towered one on the right. Both capbadge images courtesy e-bay.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[Michelle Young]

I think I can see a T above the curved shoulder title. We need the experts like @FROGSMILEand @CorporalPunishment

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

I think I can see a T above the curved shoulder title. We need the experts like @FROGSMILEand @CorporalPunishment

It’s the 4th, 5th and 6th TF Battalion badge of the Suffolk Regiment, with a special regimental pattern castle in the centre instead of the Gibraltar type, and with the honour circlet replaced by a ring.

Edited 9 January by FROGSMILE

[Kev darby]

wow that was quick many thanks

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s the 4th, 5th and 6th TF Battalion badge of the Suffolk Regiment, with a special regimental pattern castle in the centre instead of the Gibraltar type, and with the honour circlet replaced by a ring.

The castle is supposedly that of Bury St. Edmunds. The shoulder titles look to be T-4-SUFFOLK.     Pete.

Edited 9 January by CorporalPunishment

[max7474]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

I was going to query that as the Suffolk Regiment badge I'm used to has a three towered castle and so there would not be a void as shown on the capbadge on this soldier. However while looking for comparative examples I see there are some of the Great War era online that have two towers. There is probably an explanation - although I couldn't readily find one  - and hopefully that explanation might tell us a bit more about the soldier as well. In the image below the three towered capbadge is on the left as you look at it, and the two towered one on the right. Both capbadge images courtesy e-bay.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

In WW1 there were a number of variations of the sealed pattern Suffolk cap badge which had the 'correct' 3 towered castle.  The cap badge in post 1 is the TF badge as described. 

However in addition there were 3 other variants: an unpierced version of the 3 towers, an 'incorrect' 2 towered 'regimental castle' of a style which had been used   on the pre 1901 QVC cap badge and the same badge die but with a third tower added to the 2 tower die.   Pictures enclosed. These are believed to be the work of sub-contractors who were not making badges before the war and the die errors and poorer quality reflect that fact.  The 1916 all brass version shown in earlier post used the correct 3 towered castle.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The castle is supposedly that of Bury St. Edmunds. The shoulder titles look to be T-4-SUFFOLK.     Pete.

Good spot Pete, that concludes it nicely.

[battle of loos]

good eveing,

here is one dog tag to one soldier served to the 4th Suffolk Regt find in one camp near Arras for the battle to the 09 april 1917  ( Cherisy - Fontaine les Croisilles) :

after, he go to the Labour Corps .

michel

you have the name to the soldier on the picture?

[PRC]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

In WW1 there were a number of variations of the sealed pattern Suffolk cap badge which had the 'correct' 3 towered castle.  The cap badge in post 1 is the TF badge as described. 

However in addition there were 3 other variants: an unpierced version of the 3 towers, an 'incorrect' 2 towered 'regimental castle' of a style which had been used   on the pre 1901 QVC cap badge and the same badge die but with a third tower added to the 2 tower die.   Pictures enclosed. These are believed to be the work of sub-contractors who were not making badges before the war and the die errors and poorer quality reflect that fact.  The 1916 all brass version shown in earlier post used the correct 3 towered castle.

Good to know. I've seen a number of variations on the three towered regimental castle on pictures over the years - for many of the villages along the Norfolk  \ Suffolk local trade and families were as likely to be Suffolk facing as not. For those around Thetford, the regimental Depot of the Suffolks at Bury St. Edmunds was closer than that of the Norfolks at Norwich.

The penny however had not dropped that there was a two-towered version - presumably in part because those pre-war TF men from the Norfolk side of the line won't have usually been eligible to serve in a Suffolk T.F. Battalion. Having a quick look through the pictures I've salvaged from local newspapers this (low quality) one of Sergeant George Young from Lakenheath may be the closest capbadge match I could readily spot, although the voids still seem larger.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

Good to know. I've seen a number of variations on the three towered regimental castle on pictures over the years - for many of the villages along the Norfolk  \ Suffolk local trade and families were as likely to be Suffolk facing as not. For those around Thetford, the regimental Depot of the Suffolks at Bury St. Edmunds was closer than that of the Norfolks at Norwich.

The penny however had not dropped that there was a two-towered version - presumably in part because those pre-war TF men from the Norfolk side of the line won't have usually been eligible to serve in a Suffolk T.F. Battalion. Having a quick look through the pictures I've salvaged from local newspapers this (low quality) one of Sergeant George Young from Lakenheath may be the closest capbadge match I could readily spot, although the voids still seem larger.

Cheers,
Peter

He wears the same TF badge as I posted Peter, with the large aperture between Bury St Edmund castle flags.

Edited 9 January by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

Oh note to collectors is that the incorrect king's crown 2 towers and 2 towers plus one modified die version are all from the same die.  There are no wreath ends protruding below the scroll.  These have been faked but the fake die does have the protruding wreath ends.

The divergence from the sealed pattern may be due to the fact that not only were sub contractors using inferior dies and workmanship, but there was also a number of canteens and military outfitters selling spare badges commercially. These badges were produced to fill a gap in the market for replacement badges and therefore would not necessarily be up to the ACD standards.

[Kev darby]

thank you all for this info