Kings Regulations 1923

[roboks]

Hi all

I've been going through my family tree lately and looking more into my great grandfather Patrick O'Keeffe who fought in the Royal Munster Fusiliers during the war. I found the enlistment book which has info on him here https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/deeds/5eae2b45-3676-4c7f-e003-797e2f6993ba?person=537f6688-5990-4c59-a9b3-bc4ef992662e

One of the biggest questions I have is on the cause of discharge. It seems to me to say "Kings Regulations 1923 para 363(vii)" but my problem is in the time I gave to researching I couldn't find the 1923 version of the kings regulations to figure out what the actual reason was.

If there's anything I forgot to include please let me know, I'm new here.

Any help would be great, or any other insights or tips you can give about this document would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

[kenf48]

Welcome to the GWF

The Regulations have previously been discussed on the GWF.  Forum Pal @MBrockway has posted a copy of the 1935 K.R. on this thread

 

The relevant paragraph from the 1923 K.R. was copied at TNA  by a member who has since died as referenced in this much earlier thread

No firm conclusion it appears. Don't know if any of the respondents above received a copy.

 

[MBrockway]

The PDF I posted was of Paragraph 383 from the 1935 King's Regulations, but I can confirm that sub-paragraph 363 (vii) of the 1923 KRs is unchanged ...

 

Sub-para (vii) ...

[images courtesy of much missed Pal shinglma, RIP]

 ... and here is Section 81 of the 1907 Army Act ...

This suggests he paid his way out, but there are some discrepancies with this - he was certainly NOT within three months of his original Regular attestation in 1911.  Read on.

Your man enlisted into the Royal Munster Fusiliers, Special Reserve, on 23 Mar 1911 and then converted to the Regular Army, again with the RMF, on 29 Dec 1911.

He was discharged on 29 Dec 1923, which was the twelfth anniversary of his Regular enlistment.  This would be the standard terms for engagement in the Regular infantry.  In other words he would be 'time served' and would not need to buy his way out and, indeed, his entry in the Royal Munsters enlistment book you linked above, while citing the 1923 KRs Para 363 (vii), has the description 'Termination of 1st Period of Engagement', which seems to support this ...

In Para 363 of the 1923 KRs, the sub-paragraph with the 'Termination of Engagement' description used in the enlistment book, is actually (xxi), not (vii), while sub-para (vii) in the Para 292 KRs in force during the war concerns discharge after 'Having been claimed for wife desertion', which clearly does not apply here!

The bottom two entries on O'Keeffe's page in the RMF enlistment book also show discharges on 08 Jan 1924 due to 'Termination of 1st Period of Engagement', but this time cite KRs 1923 Section 484 (vii), not Section 363 (vii).  See ...

In summary I can see two possibilities for O'Keefe's discharge:

1. At the end of his 12 year term of engagement, he decided to re-enlist for further service, was committed to this, but then, within three months, thought better of it and was obliged to buy his way out by paying £10;

OR

2. He was discharged time served at the end of his 12 years under business as usual, but that the Records Office clerk has cited the sub-paragraph incorrectly.

 

My money's on #2

 

I quote my final post from the other thread from April 2020 ...

Quote

Still looking into the different flavours of the Reasons for Discharge table through the various editions of the King’s Regulations.  

Here's what I have so far.

We’re all very familiar with the table as KR Para 392 during the War.

KR Amendments in July 1921 still refer to Para 392 and I have found a Discharge 31 Mar 1922 under Para 392.

In 1923, it seems to have become Para 363.

In 1928   –   “       “      “      “  –     Para 370

In 1935   – “       “      “      “  –       Para 383

However, you and I have found discharges referencing Para 484 from Dec 1923, 1924, 1925 and 1926, where one might have expected Para 363.

Will report back as I make headway.

Mark

 

I'm sorry to say I myself have made no further headway on tracking down KRs from 1923-1928 where Reasons for Discharge etc were in Para 484 and sadly Mike, who was collaborating with Andy and myself on this, passed away in Dec 2022.

If any Pal has a copy of the King's Regulations 1923-1928 where Reasons for Discharge etc are listed under Para. 484, not Para 363, then that would really help fill this hole in the sequence of changes.

With respect to O'Keeffe, I suspect we would find that 484(vii) covers Termination of Engagement

The Royal Munsters enlistment book has now allowed us to bracket the switch of citations from Para 363 to Para 484 to between 29 Dec 1923 and 08 Jan 1924.  Clearly 01 Jan 1924 is the most likely date for the actual change.  This at least is some progress.

Cheers,

Mark

Edited 8 January by MBrockway
Surname misspelt - apologies

[MBrockway]

21 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

<snip> The Royal Munsters enlistment book has now allowed us to bracket the switch of citations from Para 363 to Para 484 to between 29 Dec 1923 and 08 Jan 1924.  Clearly 01 Jan 1924 is the most likely date for the actual change.  This at least is some progress.

Cheers,

Mark

I spoke too soon, darn it!

I found this 13 Dec 1923 discharge citing KRs Para 484 on the previous page of the Royal Munsters enlistment book ...

although I guess it does lend weight to the clerk making an error when he cited Para 363 for O'Keeffe on 29 Dec 1923.

 

Edited 8 January by MBrockway

[roboks]

20 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

The PDF I posted was of Paragraph 383 from the 1935 King's Regulations, but I can confirm that sub-paragraph 363 (vii) of the 1923 KRs is unchanged ...

 

Sub-para (vii) ...

[images courtesy of much missed Pal shinglma, RIP]

 ... and here is Section 81 of the 1907 Army Act ...

This suggests he paid his way out, but there are some discrepancies with this - he was certainly NOT within three months of his original Regular attestation in 1911.  Read on.

Your man enlisted into the Royal Munster Fusiliers, Special Reserve, on 23 Mar 1911 and then converted to the Regular Army, again with the RMF, on 29 Dec 1911.

He was discharged on 29 Dec 1923, which was the twelfth anniversary of his Regular enlistment.  This would be the standard terms for engagement in the Regular infantry.  In other words he would be 'time served' and would not need to buy his way out and, indeed, his entry in the Royal Munsters enlistment book you linked above, while citing the 1923 KRs Para 363 (vii), has the description 'Termination of 1st Period of Engagement', which seems to support this ...

In Para 363 of the 1923 KRs, the sub-paragraph with the 'Termination of Engagement' description used in the enlistment book, is actually (xxi), not (vii), while sub-para (vii) in the Para 292 KRs in force during the war concerns discharge after 'Having been claimed for wife desertion', which clearly does not apply here!

The bottom two entries on O'Keefe's page in the RMF enlistment book also show discharges on 08 Jan 1924 due to 'Termination of 1st Period of Engagement', but this time cite KRs 1923 Section 484 (vii), not Section 363 (vii).  See ...

In summary I can see two possibilities for O'Keefe's discharge:

1. At the end of his 12 year term of engagement, he decided to re-enlist for further service, was committed to this, but then, within three months, thought better of it and was obliged to buy his way out by paying £10;

OR

2. He was discharged time served at the end of his 12 years under business as usual, but that the Records Office clerk has cited the sub-paragraph incorrectly.

 

My money's on #2

 

I quote my final post from the other thread from April 2020 ...

 

I'm sorry to say I myself have made no further headway on tracking down KRs from 1923-1928 where Reasons for Discharge etc were in Para 484 and sadly Mike, who was collaborating with Andy and myself on this, passed away in Dec 2022.

If any Pal has a copy of the King's Regulations 1923-1928 where Reasons for Discharge etc are listed under Para. 484, not Para 363, then that would really help fill this hole in the sequence of changes.

With respect to O'Keefe, I suspect we would find that 484(vii) covers Termination of Engagement

The Royal Munsters enlistment book has now allowed us to bracket the switch of citations from Para 363 to Para 484 to between 29 Dec 1923 and 08 Jan 1924.  Clearly 01 Jan 1924 is the most likely date for the actual change.  This at least is some progress.

Cheers,

Mark

Thank you! That's a lot of detail I wouldn't have been able to get elsewhere, a lot of that page was gibberish to me! It seems to me that the paragraph and subparagraph are written at different times also, but I could be mistaken.

[roboks]

Just a little addendum also, this might be the wrong place to ask this so forgive me if so.

Patrick O'Keeffe died in England in 1944 and was buried there, the family didn't even know he was in the army until recently. We therefore have no idea what happened to the medals.

My father is very interested in whether or not it's possible to get these medals from the army, or any official certification for his service. If you have any info I could pass on to him that'd be great, sorry again if this isn't the right place.

[MBrockway]

You're probably best asking these questions in a new topic with a title that makes it clear you're after info on getting replacement medals.

The relevant medal experts are unlikely to be reading this topic on the King's Regulations!

[MBrockway]

As regards Patrick O'Keeffe's service history, what do have already?

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, MBrockway said:

As regards Patrick O'Keeffe's service history, what do have already?

I think his medals were issued under his original number.  There are seven digit numbers in the Rolls, but not his. His medals are listed in the above cited registers so another anomaly.

[MBrockway]

This is what I have so far, but with the caveat that the Munsters are not Rifles, so not my main area of expertise!

[Update: medical admission info added from Alan24 and corrections/additions from the 1/RMF War Diaries covering Gallipoli and the bn's arrival at the Western Front]

23 Mar 1911 - enlisted Royal Munster Fusiliers, Special Reserve.  Service Number 5635.
Special Reserve enlistment was for six years, beginning with a period of full time preliminary military training of five months after which the soldier returned to his civilian life.  He then attended 3-4 weeks of annual training for the remainder of his service.  
The R. Muns. Fus. had three Special Reserve battalions - 3rd, 4th and 5th.  
After 1908, these battalions were ...
3/RMF - Kerry Militia, HQ at Tralee, Co. Kerry
4/RMF - South Cork Light Infantry Militia. HQ at Kinsale, Co. Cork
5/RMF - Royal Limerick County Militia (Fusiliers) HQ at Limerick, Co. Limerick
Since O'Keeffe was a Limerick man, it is probable he was in 5/RMF.

29 Dec 1911 - discharged from the Special Reserve on enlisting as a Regular, Royal Munster Fusiliers, at Ennis, Co. Clare.  Renumbered as 9706.  

Regular enlistment was for twelve years.  In the Infantry, this would usually be for seven years with the Colours, followed by five years on the Reserve

He declared his Age as 18 years, 9 months, giving a date of birth in Spring 1893, but this disagrees with his death at age 49 years in Q2 1944, which points back to 1895, so he may have been under age.

In Dec 1911, 1/RMF were on garrison duites in Rangoon, Burma and 2/RMF were at Tidworth, Wilts.
Recruits could not be sent overseas until their 19th birthday

O'Keeffe's British War and Victory Medal roll gives wartime service in 1/RMF and then 2/RMF.  This often indicates a soldier was repatriated after sickness or wounding and, on regaining fitness, transferred to a different battalion.  However he was definitely first in action with 1/RMF at GALLIPOLI and he was definitely with 2/RMF at the Armistice in 1918.

[Update: Pal Alan24 has located a medical admission to No 2 General Hospital at LE HAVRE with a middle ear infection in April 1916 - see below]

04 Aug 1914 - at the start of the War, 1/RMF were still in RANGOON, BURMA.
Dec 1914 - 1/RMF sailed for the UK
10 Jan 1915 - 1/RMF disembarked at AVONMOUTH and moved to COVENTRY where the Bn. joined 86 Brigade, 29th Division.  This was a newly constituted Regular division formed from Regular battalions brought back from more distant garrison duties overseas.  The division was originally earmarked for the Western Front.

16 Mar 1915 - 1/RMF embarked from AVONMOUTH for ALEXANDRIA, EGYPT, via MALTA, to join the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force (MEF).
08 Apr 1915 - 1/RMF embarked from Egypt for MUDROS, LEMNOS.  Greek island in the Aegean used as the main Allied Base for the Gallipoli theatre

09 Apr 1915 - 1/RMF disembarked at LEMNOS

25 Apr 1915 - O'Keeffe disembarked at BEACH 'V', HELLES, GALLIPOLI with 1/RMF.  This was the first day of the land campaign at Gallipoli.
25 Apr to 02 May 1915 - heavy fighting on and near the beach, at the bridgehead around SEDD-EL-BAHR, HILL 141 and HILL 138 with very heavy casualties
29 Apr 1915 - 1/RMF were relieved and taken off the landing beaches
30 Apr 1915 - after very heavy casualties, 1/RMF and 1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers were temporarily amalgamated into a composite unit known as the "Dubsters".  Combined strength was ~780.
02 May 1915 - the "Dubsters" relieved from front line trenches and moved back 1.5 miles to the Reserve trenches

04 May 1915 - the "Dubsters" returned to the front line trenches in front of KRITHIA

08 May 1915 - the "Dubsters" relieved from front line trenches and moved to 87 Bde HQ on left flank

09 May 1915 - the "Dubsters" undertook an abortive attack on the left flank, later moving to GULLY BEACH in order to reorganise

19 May 1915 - 1/RMF resumed its separate identity

May-Dec 1915 - 1/RMF in standard trench routine mostly on the left of the line near GULLY RAVINE, 'Y' BEACH and GULLY BEACH.  Also at SUVLA.  Occasional spells at MUDROS

If O'Keeffe was wounded at Gallipoli, which is highly likely, then his history probably separates from that of 1/RMF, his original battalion, at this point.  On his return to front line duty, he may have been posted to either of the two RMF Regular battalions

06 Jan 1916 - 1/RMF Division evacuated from GALLIPOLI theatre back to EGYPT

08 Jan 1916 - 1/RMF disembarked at ALEXANDRIA and later went into camp at SUEZ

16 Mar 1916 - 1/RMF embarked from PORT SAID, EGYPT for MARSEILLES, FRANCE

22 Mar 1916 - 1/RMF disembarked at MARSEILLES and entrained to the north in stages arriving at PONT REMY on 24 Mar and thence marched to billets at MAISON ROLAND near ABBEVILLE

13 Apr 1916 - 1/RMF moved into front line trenches near BEAUSSART, north of ALBERT just West of the R. ANCRE at the left edge of the Somme sector

17 Apr 1916 - O'Keeffe admitted to No 2 General Hospital at LE HAVRE with middle ear infection [info from Alan24]  1/RMF were still in the front line.

25 Apr 1916 - 1/RMF posted as Lines of Communication troops and moved back to the coast at BOULOGNE.

02 May 1916 - O'Keeffe discharged from No 2 General Hospital and sent to Base Depot at ROUEN to await deployment to the Front [info from Alan24]  1/RMF were still training at BOULOGNE

28 May 1916 - 1/RMF left BOULOGNE and transferred to 48 Bde, 16th (Irish) Division at BETHUNE, in the Loos/Lens Sector.  Shortly afterwards, the bn went into the line near MAZINGARBE

05 Sep 1916 - 1/RMF at GINCHY on the Somme
09 Sep 1916 - 1/RMF took part in the BATTLE OF GINCHY (part of the Somme Campaign) leading to the capture of the town.

05 Oct 1916 - marriage to Honora DELAHUNTY at Limerick

22 Nov 1916 - 1/RMF transferred to 47 Bde, still in 16th (Irish) Division
1917 - as well as general trench warfare, 1/RMF were in action at the BATTLE OF MESSINES in June and the BATTLE OF CAMBRAI in November
21 Mar 1918 - both 1/ and 2/RMF were in the path of the main German attack of the Spring Offensive
19 Apr 1918 - 1/RMF absorbed the surplus men from 2/RMF.  2/RMF was then reduced to a training cadre to rebuild after their heavy losses in the German Spring Offensive.
20 Apr 1918 - 1/RMF transferred to 172 Bde, 57th (2nd West Lancs) Division.

2/RMF had been on the Western Front since 14 Aug 1914, initially in 1 (Guards) Bde, 1st Division, then as Army Troops till Nov 1914 when they switched to 3 Bde, 1st Divn.  1st Divn was involved in most of the Western Front actions.  On 03 Feb 1918 2/RMF transferred to 48 Bde, 16th (Irish) Divn.  After the German Spring Offensive, they were reduced to a fighting strength of only 290.  They were reduced to a cadre tasked with training the newly arrived American Army, with the surplus transferred to 1/RMF.  When reconstituted in June 1918 they were initially Lines of Communication troops and then came under 150 Bde, 50th Divn.

07 Aug 1918 - birth of son, Martin, at Limerick

11 Nov 1918 - at the Armistice, 1/RMF were still in 172 Bde, 57th Divn and were at LILLE.  2/RMF were in 150 Bde, 50th Divn an at SARS POTTERIES, north east of AVESNES.
O'Keeffe's roll entry for the British War & Victory medals has him serving with 2/RMF at the Armistice.  When he joined them however is unclear.  Also he may have been on the strength of the battalion, but on Home Service, not at the Front.  Given his children's birth dates, it is possible he was in Ireland from late 1917 onwards.

25 Jul 1919 - transferred to Section 'B', Army Reserve.  This was standard second stage for any Regular, who had finished his period of service with the Colours.  He would have returned to civilian life, but with the obligation to return in the event of a general mobilisation.

22 May 1920 - birth of son, Patrick, at Limerick

Aug 1920 - in line with the Army-wide renumbering, he was issued the new seven digit "Army Number" of 7211248.

24 Aug 1922 - birth of daughter, Bridget, at Limerick

31 Jul 1922 - Royal Munster Fusiliers disbanded as a result of the formation of the Irish Free State, however O'Keeffe was already in the Reserve at this stage.

29 Dec 1923 - discharge, (probably) time served.  

13 Jun 1944 - death at The Hostel (or possibly 'The Hotel'), Haverton Hill, which was a small hamlet on the north bank of the Tees just opposite Middlesbrough.  It disappeared under ICI chemical plant post WW2, which now in turn have also been demolished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 January by MBrockway
medical admission info added from Alan24 and corrections/additions from the 1/RMF War Diaries covering Gallipoli and the bn's arrival at the Western Front

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

I think his medals were issued under his original number.  There are seven digit numbers in the Rolls, but not his. His medals are listed in the above cited registers so another anomaly.

The Munster's enlistment book has his original Service Number of '9706' in the final column on the RHS.  That then unlocks locating his MIC and the two medal rolls.

However I could not find any Service, nor Pension record for him, nor could I find him in the 1939 National Register even though he appears to have been living in Tees-side at his death in 1944.  His roots in Limerick seem strong though, so he may well have been normally resident in the Republic.

 

[MBrockway]

His MIC on Ancestry (here - subscription required) only lists his BWM and VM roll entry, but I found his 1914-15 Star roll on a second MIC, which I located on the National Archives (WO 372/15/31941).  So far I haven't been able to find this second MIC on Ancestry.

TNA's 1914-15 Star MIC ...

 

His later MIC for the BWM and VM seems to include a reference to a Records enquiry of some sort dated 31 Jul 1933.

If he was now a citizen of the Irish Republic I'm not sure how the British Army medal office handled the issue of medals, perhaps not automatically and instead needed these men to apply?

 

[MBrockway]

If the place of death in 1944 is The Hotel, Haverton Hill rather than The Hostel, Haverton Hill, then this may be place:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/MoQf2LXELTPRc3HH6

 

[Alan24]

There is a medical record for him dated 17 April 1916 to 02 May 1916 at 2nd General Hospital (which would have been at Le Havre) where after he was sent to the IBD at Rouen to await reposting within a draft of reinforcements. 

'Infection Middle Ear' seems to be the complaint. 

His rank is listed as Driver. Religion, Roman Catholic, as you would expect. 

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBM%2FMH106%2FMH106-930%2F0008&parentid=GBM%2FMH106%2FP2%2F812660 

[kenf48]

 

On 09/01/2024 at 14:53, roboks said:

My father is very interested in whether or not it's possible to get these medals from the army, or any official certification for his service. If you have any info I could pass on to him that'd be great, sorry again if this isn't the right place.

Must get a bigger screen!

To answer the specific question Pte.O'Keeffe's medals were dealt with in the normal way in that the 14-15 Star ribbon was authorised while still serving and the 'war medals' sent out by registered post to the address given on demobilisation. Neither Roll gives any indication the medals were not received by the recipient.

Attached courtesy of Ancestry is the extract from the BWM and V.  Alongside a number of the entries is the notation in red ink that the Medals were returned probably undelivered. In these instances it is possible to apply successfully for the medals. Unfortunately this does not apply to Pte O'Keeffe, there is no note against his entry indicating the medals were received and therefore will not be re-issued.

Image from Ancestry

I believe the British Medals Forum has a 'lost medals' section and it is possible to set up alerts on auction sites etc there are a number of success stories on GWF though it requires considerable patience.

[MBrockway]

7 hours ago, Alan24 said:

There is a medical record for him dated 17 April 1916 to 02 May 1916 at 2nd General Hospital (which would have been at Le Havre) where after he was sent to the IBD at Rouen to await reposting within a draft of reinforcements. 

'Infection Middle Ear' seems to be the complaint. 

His rank is listed as Driver. Religion, Roman Catholic, as you would expect. 

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBM%2FMH106%2FMH106-930%2F0008&parentid=GBM%2FMH106%2FP2%2F812660 

Thanks Alan - I've edited the timeline in my post higher up.  I've also been reading the 1/RMF war diaries for Gallipoli and their move to the Western Front and have also included corrections and additions from these into the timeline.

Mark