Mattr82 Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January (edited) Gents, I'm looking for a bit more info on this Lithgow scabbard. It's early (1913 - 1915) but it has a star in a place I've not seen before. Looking for extra info if others have seen it in the location in question. The star in question is the last photo in the group. Also, more info please on the frog. Unsure of what 'issue' it may be. 2nd issue as it has a 5 inch strap? And has anyone noted the markings on the helve carrier before? The Lithgow star in question.... Edited 5 January by Mattr82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January 4 hours ago, Mattr82 said: ...And has anyone noted the markings on the helve carrier before?... I was interested to see those markings on the e-tool helve holder, as I only recently purchased a 1919 dated supporting strap which appears to sport a potentially identical or nearly so set, eg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January 8 hours ago, Mattr82 said: Gents, I'm looking for a bit more info on this Lithgow scabbard. It's early (1913 - 1915) but it has a star in a place I've not seen before. Looking for extra info if others have seen it in the location in question. The star in question is the last photo in the group. Yes Matt, I have a virtually identical scabbard to this example in my collection, marked exactly the same. I have always taken the date to be 1912 so it is indeed a VERY early Lithgow scabbard.! The star you speak of is in the same location close to the locket. It looks to be a standard Lithgow inspection marking placed there during it's manufacture. There should be photos of this bayonet set of mine somewhere on the forum as I have posted about it previously ... I will try to locate. It is one of the premier examples that I own marked SA issue in excellent condition. I even had to gingerly undo the 1915 dated frog to check the inspection marking for you. That frog hadn't been removed for decades.! Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January 3 minutes ago, shippingsteel said: date to be 1912 You have my curiosity there. I did not think that Lithgow started any manufacture until 1913. I do have a 1913 bayonet unfortunately it was refurbished in the early 20s and the hook quillion removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January (edited) From what I have found they did actually start some trial production in 1912 before slowly building up to scale in 1913. I will have to go back and check for my sources again. Cheers, SS PS. You can look for yourself though and make up your own mind ... I have now located my old photos on the forum. Edited 5 January by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January So here are the photos posted previously of my bayonet set, including the Lithgow scabbard in question. What do you think about the date.?? Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattr82 Posted 5 January Author Share Posted 5 January That is fascinating SS because it does look like a 1912 stamping on mine but I thought it might have been a roughly done 3 on the end. The key is trying to determine when they did the Lithgow inspection star up the top left. I haven’t seen it on any other examples (except for yours now). The other part I am trying to work out is the small A vs larger A on the chape. what year is that HQ SS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_C Posted 6 January Share Posted 6 January (edited) 11 hours ago, Mattr82 said: Also, more info please on the frog. Unsure of what 'issue' it may be. 2nd issue as it has a 5 inch strap? And has anyone noted the markings on the helve carrier before? The frog is a (so called) ‘third issue’ in that it lacks the two brass reinforcing hose rivets present on earlier versions. No LoC is available for this modification but almost certainly a utility measure introduced in 1918 and coinciding with similar modifications to some waist belts and packs. All wartime frogs had 5 inch helve straps. The helve carrier is a crude modern copy made from a pack support strap that most likely originated from the same unit as Andrew’s example. The telltale signs are - the dimensions are wrong, the gap between the upper and lower loops is too big - the upper loops have been stitched together from two mismatched 1 inch straps - the upper loops lack the inner brass tip - the lower loops have been roughly stitched together rather than secured at the rear with the distinctive figure of eight fold - the part of the strap that is folded back to secure the buckle should face forward and be secured in place behind the upper loop - the buckle is inverted, indicating the the carrier was fashioned from a pack support strap - the open bar of the buckle should face downward when secured to the frog. Some comparisons with a genuine carrier below might better illustrate the differences. Pete Edited 6 January by Pete_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 6 January Share Posted 6 January 22 minutes ago, Pete_C said: ...The helve carrier is a crude modern copy made from a pack support strap that most likely originated from the same unit as Andrew’s example. The telltale signs are... Another sign to note Pete is the stitching for the top set of loops actually goes through the stamped W mark (any real markings on a genuine piece would have been applied to the finished product and thus would have gone over the stitching). I'm genuinely saddened that this is what might have actually happened to the twin of the one I now own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 7 January Share Posted 7 January I don't know why anyone would want to go through the effort of dodgeying up a helve carrier using a strap with a '1922' issue date.....nonetheless totally fake! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 7 January Share Posted 7 January 39 minutes ago, Fromelles said: I don't know why anyone would want to go through the effort of dodgeying up a helve carrier using a strap with a '1922' issue date.....nonetheless totally fake! It reminds me very much of the typical reproductions available to the living history and collecting communities about 20/25+ years ago when remaking the rarer pieces from other common bits was itself commonplace, prior to good quality reproductions being readily available off the shelf. It probably wasn't made to deceive originally, but somewhere along the route it either accidentally or deliberately lost this attribution and... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattr82 Posted 7 January Author Share Posted 7 January Thanks for the info on the frog and helve carrier. I wasn’t too fussed about it as I’d seen Karkee web and noticed some differences but wanted better clarification. It was the early Lithgow scabbard that got me interested in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 January Share Posted 7 January (edited) On 06/01/2024 at 08:24, Chasemuseum said: You have my curiosity there. I did not think that Lithgow started any manufacture until 1913. On 06/01/2024 at 08:31, shippingsteel said: From what I have found they did actually start some trial production in 1912 before slowly building up to scale in 1913. The Small Arms Factory (Lithgow) was officially opened in June 1912, with 250 workers on the payroll. Rifle production commenced in February 1912 with the first samples completed in December 1912. The first order for Rifles was placed by the Army in August 1912. The first commercial sale occurred in October 1912 of 5-round charger clips to the CAC. So as you can see it all started happening in 1912 with the less complicated items being ready for sale first. You would think that scabbard manufacture would fit into this category as well. Complete rifles obviously took longer to get right.! This information can be found in a number of Skennerton's works including :- "The Lee-Enfield", 2007, Chapter 10 "Australian Military Rifles & Bayonets", 1988, Chapter 4 As for the extra Inspection mark in question I would guess that with these scabbards being very early production (1912) that perhaps they were given an extra inspection prior to final acceptance for sale. That, or the early production process for scabbards included a quality inspection that required an Inspection marking being stamped. Something like this we will never know for certain. Cheers, SS Edited 7 January by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 8 January Share Posted 8 January On 07/01/2024 at 13:26, Andrew Upton said: It reminds me very much of the typical reproductions available to the living history and collecting communities about 20/25+ years ago when remaking the rarer pieces from other common bits was itself commonplace, prior to good quality reproductions being readily available off the shelf. It probably wasn't made to deceive originally, but somewhere along the route it either accidentally or deliberately lost this attribution and... Good point, hadn't thought it may have just been an honest gap filler Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February Here is my 1916 Lithgow scabbard, it looks to be marked the same as your 1912 dated example, except for a marking below the Star, to my poor eyes it looks like it could be a 'II' - Mk II scabbard(?) Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February Under high magnification it looks to be a VII mark. I seem to recall they used the Roman numerals as Inspector numbers early on. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February Cheers for that SS, now I look at it again I can see the slight angle of the 'V', you've much better eyes than I. I'll have to dig through my other scabbards and see if there are similar markings. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February The Zoom feature on the modern cellphone is a godsend.! Nice scabbard by the way. Have added a closeup shot of the marking for everyone else to check for us. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February Yes, I can see now it's a VII It is indeed a nice scabbard with its equally nice matching numbered bayonet! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February The Lithgow bayonets have the Roman numerals stamped on the ricasso as well. The normal inspection mark is the A star with Roman numerals below. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February I found these on my phone Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April On 03/02/2024 at 21:56, Fromelles said: Here is my 1916 Lithgow scabbard, it looks to be marked the same as your 1912 dated example, except for a marking below the Star, to my poor eyes it looks like it could be a 'II' - Mk II scabbard(?) Dan I have placed my hand on several scabbards this evening, I have a feeling that I am now looking for a star there, I can see it. Likely the more worn examples I have are simply rubbed from the frog and no longer visible. I have a 1914 and a 1916 here with the star in the same place as yours, Im thinking it is just a common placement. kind regards, g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April (edited) On 08/01/2024 at 09:52, shippingsteel said: The Small Arms Factory (Lithgow) was officially opened in June 1912, with 250 workers on the payroll. Rifle production commenced in February 1912 with the first samples completed in December 1912. The first order for Rifles was placed by the Army in August 1912. The first commercial sale occurred in October 1912 of 5-round charger clips to the CAC. So as you can see it all started happening in 1912 with the less complicated items being ready for sale first. You would think that scabbard manufacture would fit into this category as well. Complete rifles obviously took longer to get right.! This information can be found in a number of Skennerton's works including :- "The Lee-Enfield", 2007, Chapter 10 "Australian Military Rifles & Bayonets", 1988, Chapter 4 As for the extra Inspection mark in question I would guess that with these scabbards being very early production (1912) that perhaps they were given an extra inspection prior to final acceptance for sale. That, or the early production process for scabbards included a quality inspection that required an Inspection marking being stamped. Something like this we will never know for certain. Cheers, SS Also remembering alot of stuff that was dated 1912 and was not yet complete was still finished in 1913 and and not re-dated. Lithgow like a lot of new rifle factories suffered from issues to do with production. A lot of early rifles were still being hand fitted far more than they were supposed to be kind regards, g Edited 8 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattr82 Posted 8 April Author Share Posted 8 April Thanks Mate 1 hour ago, navydoc16 said: I have placed my hand on several scabbards this evening, I have a feeling that I am now looking for a star there, I can see it. Likely the more worn examples I have are simply rubbed from the frog and no longer visible. I have a 1914 and a 1916 here with the star in the same place as yours, Im thinking it is just a common placement. Thanks mate, Wasn't sure if the lack of observing them on early scabbards was due to the wear on them or whether there was a gap in the stars appearing. I think they might have disappeared from the scabbards in 1917 as a friend has a 1917 Lithgow scabbard in good nick and it is minus the star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April On 03/02/2024 at 23:15, shippingsteel said: The Zoom feature on the modern cellphone is a godsend.! Nice scabbard by the way. Have added a closeup shot of the marking for everyone else to check for us. Cheers, SS Also I like changing the photo setting if there are still any questions about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now