davidbohl Posted 3 January Share Posted 3 January Can we put a date and Regt on this chap with what I think is a gun layers badge please? many thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 3 January Share Posted 3 January (edited) Wound Stripes (Auth from June 1916) but no Overseas Service Chevrons (Auth Dec 1917) would bracket the probable date to late 1916 or 1917. Not aware the Layer's badge narrows dating. Charlie Regiment: No ball buttons so not RHA. Cannot see shoulder titles so RFA or RGA. Pity I cannot even make out button design Edited 3 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 3 January Author Share Posted 3 January 6 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Not aware the Layer's badge narrows dating Thanks Charlie, open question is can that Layers badge be earned or worn by soldiers of other regiments than Artillery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 January Share Posted 3 January (edited) On 03/01/2024 at 18:47, davidbohl said: Thanks Charlie, open question is can that Layers badge be earned or worn by soldiers of other regiments than Artillery? It began to be worn on the upper arm as a gunnery qualification badge from 1901. This included drab cloth, and gilding metal badges for service dress, as well as gold bullion wire for blue uniform. Prior to 1901 it was a proficiency/prize badge worn on the lower arm. In 1921 it was opened up to qualified gun layers in the Royal Armoured Corps. In the case of your photo it shows a Bombardier with the appointment of gun layer in his sub section’s gun detachment. Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 3 January Share Posted 3 January Away from my library but I believe that on the lower left it was for skill at arms, and became upper right as an appointment badge. Clothing Regs. will nail it. I seem to remember there was some controversy on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 3 January Author Share Posted 3 January 35 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: In the case of your photo it shows a Bombardier with the appointment of gun layer in his sub section’s gun detachment. Thanks Frogsmile, in the 1st b&w photo he has the Layers badge on the left arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 January Share Posted 3 January (edited) 34 minutes ago, davidbohl said: Thanks Frogsmile, in the 1st b&w photo he has the Layers badge on the left arm It’s on both arms David. Clothing Regulations stipulated right arm only but it wasn’t uncommon for men of all arms (cav, inf, arty, etc.) to wear appointment badges on both arms if they could get away with it. The key thing is it’s position above the stripes which signifies the status of his personal appointment. Although the badges were issued they (additional badges) could also be purchased from civilian sources and many men did so. Edited 3 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January Hi, The gun layers badge was an.appointment badge and worn by see pic Kendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 January Author Share Posted 4 January 7 hours ago, KENDO said: The gun layers badge was an.appointment badge Thanks Kendo, that helps a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January 8 hours ago, KENDO said: Hi, The gun layers badge was an.appointment badge and worn by see pic Kendo Better to say Became an appointment badge in about 1901. Unusually I do not have an Army Order or date but will look again ...... I have all AOs 1901 1902. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January davidbohl No probs Kendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January (edited) Are we saying that it is a qualification badge if worn by itself but when worn above the stripe it becomes an appointment badge? On ceasing to be so appointed does a qualified layer cease to wear the badge? I'm talking of the 14-18 period. Charlie Edited 4 January by charlie962 Spellink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January (edited) 22 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Are we saying that it is a qualification badge if worn by itself but when worn above the stripe it becomes an appointment badge? On ceasing to be so appointed does a qualified layer cease to wear the badge? I'm talking of the 14-18 period. Charlie The usual protocol Charlie would be that a man appointed as a gun layer would after qualification wear his badge on the right upper arm, whether he had stripes or not. It was his badge of appointment (and by association qualification). Most men appointed as layers became Bombardiers or Corporals, but it wasn’t always the case and if an NCO Layer was reduced to the ranks he would usually retain his layers badge in the same position on his upper arm. Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58 Div Mule Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January 19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Is this image Royal Artillery or Royal Marine Artillery? I have a very similar CDV in my collection and I think the collar badge and 'Austrian Knot' at the cuff suggest RA (RFA,RGA)? 58 DM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January (edited) 10 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said: Is this image Royal Artillery or Royal Marine Artillery? I have a very similar CDV in my collection and I think the collar badge and 'Austrian Knot' at the cuff suggest RA (RFA,RGA)? 58 DM. Not RMA. He’s wearing a girdle so RFA. The RMA had a noticeably elongated cuff knot. On full dress their collar grenade was also in yellow woven worsted rather than the gilding metal of the RA. Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January I don't want to flog a moribund horse, after all this forum is about 1914-1919, but I have done some hard digging backwards and consulted Clothing Regs 1894, 1898, 1904, 1914, plus the authoritative book on RA by Alastair Campbell. A few surprises. Campbell: badge introduced 1892 to be worn lower left and NOT to be worn at all if a gunnery prize badge was awarded and worn in the same position. No association with rank. CR 1894: six badges for a six gun battery, as prizes, but layer badge to be worn in preference to any of the other prize badges. Notionally one per gun. [More important now]. CR 1898: confirms Campbell, grouped with Prize badges. No association with rank. Campbell: 1901. "moved to upper right arm", no reference given. No association with rank. CR 1904: "upper right arm above chevrons if in possession of any" confirms 1904. No association with rank. CR 1914: confirms 1904 and badge is now specifically an appointment. No association with rank. I can find no Army Order 1901 or 1902, but I do have the Army Clothing Department refs for the Layer badges and dates of change. I also have a complete run of ACD ledgers but they are mss and the indices are a b*gger. If Campbell could not be specific about an order I am minded to relax. There is always a reason for change, and my guess would be that gun laying became more important as weapons improved. Perhaps every gun became established for a layer? The badge may have become worth a small pay increment, and I will look at my Pay Warrant series this evening, but beyond that we are looking for an in-house Royal Artillery expert. Drop the Dead Donkey time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January (edited) 27 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: I don't want to flog a moribund horse, after all this forum is about 1914-1919, but I have done some hard digging backwards and consulted Clothing Regs 1894, 1898, 1904, 1914, plus the authoritative book on RA by Alastair Campbell. A few surprises. Campbell: badge introduced 1892 to be worn lower left and NOT to be worn at all if a gunnery prize badge was awarded and worn in the same position. No association with rank. CR 1894: six badges for a six gun battery, as prizes, but layer badge to be worn in preference to any of the other prize badges. Notionally one per gun. [More important now]. CR 1898: confirms Campbell, grouped with Prize badges. No association with rank. Campbell: 1901. "moved to upper right arm", no reference given. No association with rank. CR 1904: "upper right arm above chevrons if in possession of any" confirms 1904. No association with rank. CR 1914: confirms 1904 and badge is now specifically an appointment. No association with rank. I can find no Army Order 1901 or 1902, but I do have the Army Clothing Department refs for the Layer badges and dates of change. I also have a complete run of ACD ledgers but they are mss and the indices are a b*gger. If Campbell could not be specific about an order I am minded to relax. There is always a reason for change, and my guess would be that gun laying became more important as weapons improved. Perhaps every gun became established for a layer? The badge may have become worth a small pay increment, and I will look at my Pay Warrant series this evening, but beyond that we are looking for an in-house Royal Artillery expert. Drop the Dead Donkey time. From memory I do recall that you had used Campbell as your guide for the 1901 quote (which incidentally I took directly from your shared endeavour with Denis Edwards), in the published book, Proficiency Badges of the British Army, a much thumbed, useful work of reference in my library. I’ve always found Campbell a particularly worthwhile possession, as whenever possible he tried to quote the origin of the changes in his footnotes, albeit inevitably with some gaps. Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January 4 hours ago, Muerrisch said: Perhaps every gun became established for a layer? Every gun had to have a layer. The 1902 Field Artillery Drill published after assessing operations during the Boer War would signal a fundamental shift from guns being deployed by default in a direct firing position to one of indirect fire. This would necessitate all guns to have layers skilled in the use of sighting for indirect fire. 4 hours ago, Muerrisch said: CR 1914: confirms 1904 and badge is now specifically an appointment. Would that mean a man could only wear the badge when he was in a established post, not when he passed his proficiency qualification ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January No. Qualify, wear the badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 4 January Share Posted 4 January 3 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: No. Qualify, wear the badge. That makes sense..... many thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58 Div Mule Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January 19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: The RMA had a noticeably elongated cuff knot. Thank you FS. Very helpful. 58 DM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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