Co H 38th Infantry Regt collar disc?

[b2187101]

My father's uncle served in Co. H 38th Infantry Regiment of the 3rd Division US Army; aka The Rock of the Marne.  This September, I was at the bridge at the Marne River where the 38th Regiment defended the German attack. 

My question: Is there a uniform collar disc that has an "H" above crossed rifles with 38.  On the internet, I have seen a collar disc with Co. D above the 38 that is the WWI version and not later.  I have seen an original WWI uniform with a collar disc with  just crossed rifles and 38, also not a late post war version.

Are there any US Army collar disc experts out there? Is an infantry collar disc with both Company and Regimental number pre-war or post-war?  Any insight would help.

Thanks in advance

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, b2187101 said:

My father's uncle served in Co. H 38th Infantry Regiment of the 3rd Division US Army; aka The Rock of the Marne.  This September, I was at the bridge at the Marne River where the 38th Regiment defended the German attack. 

My question: Is there a uniform collar disc that has an "H" above crossed rifles with 38.  On the internet, I have seen a collar disc with Co. D above the 38 that is the WWI version and not later.  I have seen an original WWI uniform with a collar disc with  just crossed rifles and 38, also not a late post war version.

Are there any US Army collar disc experts out there? Is an infantry collar disc with both Company and Regimental number pre-war or post-war?  Any insight would help.

Thanks in advance

 

If you type “collar disks” into the forum search engine (magnifying glass symbol) you will find several threads that cover collar insignia in very good detail, several of them by forum members hailing from the US.

Edited 2 January by FROGSMILE

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, b2187101 said:

My father's uncle served in Co. H 38th Infantry Regiment of the 3rd Division US Army; aka The Rock of the Marne.  This September, I was at the bridge at the Marne River where the 38th Regiment defended the German attack. 

My question: Is there a uniform collar disc that has an "H" above crossed rifles with 38.  On the internet, I have seen a collar disc with Co. D above the 38 that is the WWI version and not later.  I have seen an original WWI uniform with a collar disc with  just crossed rifles and 38, also not a late post war version.

Are there any US Army collar disc experts out there? Is an infantry collar disc with both Company and Regimental number pre-war or post-war?  Any insight would help.

Thanks in advance

 

General Order No 21, 20 March 1876 prescribed that the disk contain "letter of the company will be placed in the lower angle and the number of the regiment in the upper angle" of the crossed rifles

These were originally in brass, amended in 1902 to bronze for the then new olive drab uniform

The disk design was reconfirmed by Circular 68, 8 October 1907 as crossed rifles device with the number above and letter below for enlisted men and number above only for Infantry NCO staff (During 1915 HQ for Headquarters staff, S for supply and MG for Machine Gunners were added)

(Scipio, Albert.  (with Buddy Patterson).1981. E.M. Collar Insignia (1907-1926) Roman Books, Silver Spring Md. pp76-81)

The illustrations show all sorts of variation including just crossed rifles, just company letter (lower) under rifles, just regimental number (upper) over rifles, and the above described regimental number over rifles over the company letter.  (there are several variations in the size of company letter illustrated including variations of H p 79 plate 11)

On p97 of the extended version of the book "The Collar Disk Story 1907-1999 by the same author updated extended and published in 1999) there is a table listing variants by regiment and this table shows 38 over crossed rifles over H (in Bronze) as one of the variants 

So, at least according to this key reference, yes such a disk existed. As noted there are numerous variations (in background style (dots, checkering etc), rim, construction, attachment and finish) 

This is further complicated by the fact that during the war - to simplify issue and meet the huge numbers involved the army moved to a branch of service disk (infantry, artillery, cavalry etc with company letter on one side and a US disk (with regiment number) on the other (Change 1 para 121 Special Regulations 42)

This meant of course that crossed rifles with H (Infantry Co. H) could be used by all infantry regiments, and US with 38 could be used by all members of the 38th Division, thereby massively simplifying issue and production (a survey in 1917 had revealed 5376 different types of collar and cap insignia!)

Even with this Scipio reproduces several communiques from AEF command in Europe indicating huge numbers of men without any insignia or with insignia which did not conform to the regulations.

Hope this helps

If you want chapter and verse I would recommend getting hold of a copy of Scipio.

Chris

[b2187101]

Attached, I hope, is the US 38 disc on the 3rd Infantry Division uniform (not mine) which I photographed and the H crossed rifle 38 with screw back (not shown) I found for sale on the internet..  h38 front.pdf38 disc pdf.pdf

Here is another attempt

38 disc pdf.pdf h38 front.pdf

[4thGordons]

While I have no particular expertise in this area I would have no problem with those as Co H 38th Infantry and 38 Inf Div disks.

Both might well, based on what I reported above, have seen wartime use. I have a 3rd Div Tunic - I will go and look and see if it has collar insignia - I do not recall.

Chris

 

Edited 2 January by 4thGordons
added comment

[4thGordons]

My Third Div tunic has simple "US" on the right and "7/crossed rifles/C " on left - so Company C, 7th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Division. 

Chris

[b2187101]

4thGordons, thanks for your reply.  I appreciate you taking the time.  A side note, the buttons on the 3rd Infantry Division tunic (with the US 38 disc) have, I am pretty sure, Vegetable Ivory buttons.  Perhaps these replaced damaged or worn buttons?  

[JOVE23]

On 02/01/2024 at 14:03, 4thGordons said:

My Third Div tunic has simple "US" on the right and "7/crossed rifles/C " on left - so Company C, 7th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Division. 

Chris

Chris,

Strange. My great grandfather's 32nd Division tunic simply has US on both sides! Just goes to show how un uniform uniforms can be!

Best wishes,

Justin

 

[4thGordons]

4 hours ago, JOVE23 said:

Chris,

Strange. My great grandfather's 32nd Division tunic simply has US on both sides! Just goes to show how un uniform uniforms can be!

Best wishes,

Justin

 

From my own selection of tunics there seems to be a big variety. Initially I put this down largely to the intervening 100 years BUT - reading the memos reproduced in Scipio it seems that there were massive supply issues (as, had I thought about it, I would have realized the expansion of the US military establishment from a couple of hundred thousand to almost four million in under two years remains an amazing logistical achievement IMO) and much confusion about what "should be" worn and what was actually available - with quite a lot of making do with whatever was around. Apparently some disks were produced in Europe and some were modified at a very local level - I have seen infantry disks with the regiment number and/or company letter scratched into them by hand also.  As you say -- sometimes uniforms... aren't!

Chris

[b2187101]

I own no collar discs, nor uniforms, but I have seen a wide variety both in photo and in person, loose and attached to uniforms. Again, the "crossed rifles with D and 38" I saw for sale, and although I only saw photos of the front AND reverse, am fairly confident that a "crossed rifles with H and 38" could possibly exist as well.  I collect small things. I have looked at thousands and thousands and thousands of small things, in person and online.  I have never seen a crossed rifle with Both company and 38- until now.  The one I attached photos of, slightly different but known genuine.  I now know that my hunt for a "company H 38th" collar disc is not in vain. I am happy this sparked some interest and discussion.