Refer to RND men as 'marines'?

[Mat McLachlan]

Hi all,

I've seen in a few sources members of the Royal Naval Division referred to as 'marines' (as a general term, instead of 'soldiers' or 'troops'. Eg: 'The marines charged the enemy trench', when referring to an attack by an RND battalion).

This doesn't seem correct to me - any thoughts? As a collective term 'seaman' or 'sailor' seems more appropriate, but that would be pretty confusing when referring to a land action.

Cheers,

Mat

[Keith_history_buff]

Mat, they were referred to as "Kitchener marines", so perhaps all naval infantry, be they ratings or RMLI ORs, serving in battalions of the RND were generically referred to as Marines, rather than "those men of the Royal Naval Division" which does not roll off the tongue. I'm not aware of them being known as "R N Dees" in the same manner that the antipodeans were known as "Anzacs".

[michaeldr]

6 hours ago, Mat McLachlan said:

'The marines charged the enemy trench', when referring to an attack by an RND battalion).

Throughout its brief history the RND contained elements of the Royal Marines. It is therefore quite possible to use 'The marines charged the enemy trench', when referring to an attack by an RND battalion, which happened to be made up of RMs

August 1914 – the RND's 3rd RN Brigade was made up of Royal Marines and consequently also known as the Royal Marine Brigade [9th Battalion (Portsmouth), 10th Battalion (Plymouth), 11th Battalion (Chatham), 12th Battalion (Deal)]
July 1915 – reorganised as part of the 2nd RN Brigade [1st Marine Battalion (Chatham & Deal), 2nd Marine Battalion (Portsmouth & Plymouth)]
July 1916 – on the WF reorganised yet again, becoming part of 188th Brigade, 63rd (RN) Division: [1st RMLI Battalion & 2nd RMLI Battalion]

details from Len Sellers' magazine 'R.N.D.' Issue No.1, June 1997

Edited 2 January by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

6 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

referred to as "Kitchener marines",

The term Kitchener's Marines usually refers to a specific group of men, first recruited into the army under Kitchener's scheme and then quickly transferred  - see the article here http://www.jackclegg.com/kitchener.htm  - “The RMLI & RNVR received around 3100 'Kitchener's men' in September 1914. … … "

[Mat McLachlan]

Thanks for the replies. What about men from the other battalions, such as the Hood and Howe?

Cheers,

Mat

[michaeldr]

30 minutes ago, Mat McLachlan said:

What about men from the other battalions, such as the Hood and Howe

I'm not sure exactly what you're question is here Matt, 
however if it's the R.N.D.'s OoB, then per the same  Len Sellers' magazine 'R.N.D.' Issue No.1, June 1997  * as used above

August 1914: 
1st Royal Naval Brigade = 1st Battalion (Drake), 2nd Battalion (Hawke), 3rd Battalion (Benbow) & 4th Battalion (Collingwood)
2nd Royal Naval Brigade = 5th Battalion (Nelson), 6th Battalion (Howe), 7th Battalion (Hood) & 8th Battalion) Anson)
3rd Royal Marine Brigade
July 1915:
1st R. N. Brigade = Drake, Nelson, Hawke & Hood Battalions
2nd R. N. Brigade = 1st RM Battalion, 2nd RM Battalion + Anson & Howe Battalions
July 1916: renamed as 63rd (R.N.) Division
188th Brigade = Howe & Anson Battalions + 1st & 2nd RMLI Battalions
189th Brigade = Hood, Hawke, Drake & Nelson Battalions
190th Brigade = Army Battalions which at various times, included;1st H.A.C., 4th Bedfords, 7th Royal Fussiliers, 10th R. Dublin Fussiliers, 1/28th The London Regiment, 1/4th R Shropshire Light Infantry and 2nd Royal Irish Regiment 

* available from http://www.crystalpalacefoundation.org.uk/shop/world-war-1-iwm-the-gt-victory-exhibition/royal-naval-division-w-i-a-d

[horatio2]

Perhaps Mat is seeking a generic term to describe the men of the naval battalions of the RND?

As @michaeldr has described, the men of the RMLI-manned battalions can be referred to as "marines". (Noting that the rank of "marine" was not used until the 1923 amalgamation of the RMLI and RMA into the Corps of Royal Marines).

The naval battalions (Nelson, Hood, et al) were manned by seamen and stokers of the Royal Navy and by seamen of the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. It would be acceptable to refer to these men collectively as "seamen" (pace the many stokers).

Edited 2 January by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

Another term widely used at the time was ‘bluejackets’ (which applied to all sailors) however when used in RND context it was helpful in differentiating the RMLI from RN battalions.

MB

[Keith_history_buff]

14 hours ago, Mat McLachlan said:

Hi all,

I've seen in a few sources members of the Royal Naval Division referred to as 'marines' (as a general term, instead of 'soldiers' or 'troops'. Eg: 'The marines charged the enemy trench', when referring to an attack by an RND battalion).

This doesn't seem correct to me - any thoughts? As a collective term 'seaman' or 'sailor' seems more appropriate, but that would be pretty confusing when referring to a land action.

Cheers,

Mat

Are you able to provide examples, please, Mat?

Thanks in advance.