ZONE ROUGE

[healdav]

I n my local newspaper yesterday there was an article saying that there was an area of Flanders (France) that was known as the Zone Rouge and that it was still forbidden to go there today due to the war pollution.

I know that there was a Zone Rouge, but TODAY! I have never heard of such a thing. Does it still exist or is this just a journalist getting himself (herself) in a twist

[DavidOwen]

National Geographic seems to think so Red Zone (nationalgeographic.org)

[ForeignGong]

Hi 

This was given to me while on a battle field tour in 2016 as being up to date as of 2010.

 

Peter

[healdav]

18 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

National Geographic seems to think so Red Zone (nationalgeographic.org)

Thanks for that. I must question Christina. But there is nowhere that is actually marked as a Zone Rouge. In fact, if you are silly enough you can walk across the whole of the Verdun battlefield (and that is not where the Zone Rouge was designated at the end of the war).

The only signs I know of say, "Zone Militaire" or similar. Believe it or not, a part of the Verdun battlefield is actually an army firing range on certain days of the week.

[TullochArd]

Inspired by your question I have been having a rummage around the internet - and must conclude our learned friends have answered your question.  Most of the available information is today skewed towards Verdun which remains, and will remain, the largest Zone Rouge. 

Amazingly this bizarre event (the subject of this strange book "Riding the Red Zone") caught my eye and specifically mentions Flanders as you do ....... "The Circuit des Champs de Bataille (the Tour of the Battlefields) was held in 1919, less than six months after the end of the First World War. It covered 2,000 kilometres and was raced in appalling conditions across the battlefields of the Western Front, otherwise known as the Zone Rouge. The race was so tough that only 21 riders (of 87) finished, and it was never staged again." 

Must admit I'm not surprised it was never held again.

Riding in the Zone Rouge: The Tour of... by Isitt, Tom (amazon.co.uk)

Edited 31 December , 2023 by TullochArd

[healdav]

22 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Inspired by your question I have been having a rummage around the internet - and must conclude our learned friends have answered your question.  Most of the available information is today skewed towards Verdun which remains, and will remain, the largest Zone Rouge. 

Amazingly this bizarre event (the subject of this strange book "Riding the Red Zone") caught my eye and specifically mentions Flanders as you do ....... "The Circuit des Champs de Bataille (the Tour of the Battlefields) was held in 1919, less than six months after the end of the First World War. It covered 2,000 kilometres and was raced in appalling conditions across the battlefields of the Western Front, otherwise known as the Zone Rouge. The race was so tough that only 21 riders (of 87) finished, and it was never staged again." 

Must admit I'm not surprised it was never held again.

Riding in the Zone Rouge: The Tour of... by Isitt, Tom (amazon.co.uk)

 

I doubt that any of today's amazing riders would be capable of doing it. The Zone Rouge riders were on their own, no back up vehicles at all. If one had a puncture they had to repair it, and generally do it by themselves.

Today's riders just have to ride. If anything goes wrong with the bike there are oodles of new bikes on back up vehicles. And, in fact, the actual cycling is a minor part of the entire circus. When the Tour de France goes through anywhere (and the anywhere PAYS for the Tour to go through) there is an hour or so of advertising and then at least one fuel tanker to fill up the advertisers, dozens of motorcycles with camera crews, wandering in and out of the cyclists, cars, back up vehicles with nice shiny new bikes for any that get dirty, and the whole thing surrounded by police.

The entire cavalcade is preceded by, if you can believe it, municipal road cleaners sweeping every last bit of grit from the road so that the riders won't be upset. The bikes they ride are so fragile, a piece of gravel will cause a puncture or a wheel to buckle. None of them would be capable of doing what the Zone Rouge riders went through.

And, oh yes, my village has suffered the Tour de France on two occasions. We are still paying for it.

[AOK4]

3 minutes ago, healdav said:

I doubt that any of today's amazing riders would be capable of doing it. The Zone Rouge riders were on their own, no back up vehicles at all. If one had a puncture they had to repair it, and generally do it by themselves.

Today's riders just have to ride. If anything goes wrong with the bike there are oodles of new bikes on back up vehicles. And, in fact, the actual cycling is a minor part of the entire circus. When the Tour de France goes through anywhere (and the anywhere PAYS for the Tour to go through) there is an hour or so of advertising and then at least one fuel tanker to fill up the advertisers, dozens of motorcycles with camera crews, wandering in and out of the cyclists, cars, back up vehicles with nice shiny new bikes for any that get dirty, and the whole thing surrounded by police.

The entire cavalcade is preceded by, if you can believe it, municipal road cleaners sweeping every last bit of grit from the road so that the riders won't be upset. The bikes they ride are so fragile, a piece of gravel will cause a puncture or a wheel to buckle. None of them would be capable of doing what the Zone Rouge riders went through.

And, oh yes, my village has suffered the Tour de France on two occasions. We are still paying for it.

You are making a bit of a cartoon of it. Have you ever watched cyclocross, Paris-Roubaix or the gravel races? Just to name some.

[healdav]

8 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

You are making a bit of a cartoon of it. Have you ever watched cyclocross, Paris-Roubaix or the gravel races? Just to name some.

It's all much the same. They would take one look at the Zone Rouge race and find that they were sick and unable to take part.

[TullochArd]

....... we'd better not tell Sam Mendes about the 1919 Circuit des Champs de Bataille then ......it could turn into Part 2 of "1917"

Back to reality however.  In my rather over focussed emphasis on the more obvious Iron Harvest angle I had totally missed the ongoing concerns of chemical pollution moving from the French and Belgian Red Zones into the wider water table.  Fascinating stuff https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/the-great-war-clean-up/3009456.article

[AOK4]

1 minute ago, TullochArd said:

....... we'd better not tell Sam Mendes about the 1919 Circuit des Champs de Bataille then ......it could turn into Part 2 of "1917"

Back to reality however.  In my rather over focussed emphasis on the more obvious Iron Harvest angle I had totally missed the ongoing concerns of chemical pollution moving from the French and Belgian Red Zones into the wider water table.  Fascinating stuff https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/the-great-war-clean-up/3009456.article

There was some research done in 2008-2009 in Flanders, but the conclusion was that there is nothing to worry about...

https://ovam.vlaanderen.be/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=de666852-9494-7394-92e0-4e2adec77aae&groupId=177281

Jan

 

[TullochArd]

3 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

There was some research done in 2008-2009 in Flanders, but the conclusion was that there is nothing to worry about...

https://ovam.vlaanderen.be/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=de666852-9494-7394-92e0-4e2adec77aae&groupId=177281

Jan

 

TVM Jan

[Marilyne]

6 hours ago, AOK4 said:

You are making a bit of a cartoon of it. Have you ever watched cyclocross, Paris-Roubaix or the gravel races? Just to name some.

Cyclocross is a Belgian / Dutch thing... *** 

 

6 hours ago, TullochArd said:

....... we'd better not tell Sam Mendes about the 1919 Circuit des Champs de Bataille then ......it could turn into Part 2 of "1917"

Good one !! 

 

Seriously now, when I look at the map, it sais the "red zone" is a zone completely demolished in 1914-1918 ... that's true, but I don't think there are places in Flanders where building is forbidden because of the war. Sometimes new works get stopped because the builders find some stuff, but the work will get on eventually. 

My French friend in Reims showed me a couple of places around Suippes and Mourmelon which are effectively closed up entirely for works due to the presence of explosive ordnance in the ground. And the zone rouge in Verdun is accessible to walkers and bikers, but they are also sacred places to remind of the war and should, IMHO, stay that way. 

M.

[healdav]

17 hours ago, Marilyne said:

Cyclocross is a Belgian / Dutch thing... *** 

 

Good one !! 

 

Seriously now, when I look at the map, it sais the "red zone" is a zone completely demolished in 1914-1918 ... that's true, but I don't think there are places in Flanders where building is forbidden because of the war. Sometimes new works get stopped because the builders find some stuff, but the work will get on eventually. 

My French friend in Reims showed me a couple of places around Suippes and Mourmelon which are effectively closed up entirely for works due to the presence of explosive ordnance in the ground. And the zone rouge in Verdun is accessible to walkers and bikers, but they are also sacred places to remind of the war and should, IMHO, stay that way. 

M.

The Geographical article also say that farmers leave UXB beside the road. Not if they're sensible they don't (even if supposed to do so). They keep in the farmyard until they have a pile and then ring the disposal people. "Collectors" take anything beside the road and blow themselves up at home or nearby.

[Marilyne]

Farmers do leave UXB "beside the road"... mostly at places that are defines in advance. The best known image is that of the "iron harvest" in the electricity palls. 

The farmers have been doing that for years, they know how to handle what they find, put them aside and call DOVO which then picks up the ammunition on their rounds. The farmers also know when a pick-up can wait and when to call for urgent intervention... Most of the DOVO guys have known the farlers for years also, so it's a well-functionning procedure that goes on to make sure that no accidents happen. 

There's a good article on the work of DOVO here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2497732/The-iron-harvest-Meet-soldiers-tasked-clearing-hundreds-tonnes-deadly-World-War-I-shells-mines-beneath-fields-Flanders.html

M.

[healdav]

59 minutes ago, Marilyne said:

Farmers do leave UXB "beside the road"... mostly at places that are defines in advance. The best known image is that of the "iron harvest" in the electricity palls. 

The farmers have been doing that for years, they know how to handle what they find, put them aside and call DOVO which then picks up the ammunition on their rounds. The farmers also know when a pick-up can wait and when to call for urgent intervention... Most of the DOVO guys have known the farlers for years also, so it's a well-functionning procedure that goes on to make sure that no accidents happen. 

There's a good article on the work of DOVO here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2497732/The-iron-harvest-Meet-soldiers-tasked-clearing-hundreds-tonnes-deadly-World-War-I-shells-mines-beneath-fields-Flanders.html

M.

It's a well functioning system as is that of collectors blowing themselves up.

[AOK4]

29 minutes ago, healdav said:

It's a well functioning system as is that of collectors blowing themselves up.

There aren't that many collectors around any more who fumble with these things (at least not as many as some 20 and more years ago). I haven't heard of any of them having accidents for a long time (in the old days, one regularly read something about one of them being wounded or killed).

That's at least the impression I have around here (Flanders), I don't know about France and Verdun.

The system with the shells being gathered on the side of the road is in my opinion rather safe. Or do you prefer that the farmer should take the risk of driving around with the shells on their shaking tractor?

Anyway, in the last years, there are more and more accidents because of workmen who are not from this region and don't know the risks, start fumbling with the shells.

Jan

[Marilyne]

12 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Anyway, in the last years, there are more and more accidents because of workmen who are not from this region and don't know the risks, start fumbling with the shells.

That about sums it up: the people of Flanders have been living with those shells from generations and know to leave the handling of them to DOVO. 

indeed the last accidents ...  just before COVID if I remember well...  some foreign construction workers (as in not from the region) who tought they'd just toss the stuff aside and continue working because they were on a schedule. 

Somebody here on this forum once said that there's a bigger risk in Flanders being run over by a troop of cyclo-terr....eeuh... tourists than to be blown up by a leftover shell ... "know thy enemy..." 

M.

Edited 2 January by Marilyne

[Don Regiano]

Well, within 2 days of taking this photo someone had removed the copper band.

 

 

[AOK4]

6 minutes ago, Don Regiano said:

Well, within 2 days of taking this photo someone had removed the copper band.

That's still rather "okay", I would say. I remember the days when I was a kid (pre-internet etc). Anything a bit special that was placed on the side of the road to be collected by DOVO, disappeared within a few hours...

[Don Regiano]

Just now, AOK4 said:

That's still rather "okay", I would say. I remember the days when I was a kid (pre-internet etc). Anything a bit special that was placed on the side of the road to be collected by DOVO, disappeared within a few hours...

I guess so but I wouldn't do it.  I did find an uexploded French grenade once on the side of the road but I just kicked it away with my right foot - I am left footed (always an advantage in being selected for the football team).

 

[healdav]

20 hours ago, AOK4 said:

There aren't that many collectors around any more who fumble with these things (at least not as many as some 20 and more years ago). I haven't heard of any of them having accidents for a long time (in the old days, one regularly read something about one of them being wounded or killed).

That's at least the impression I have around here (Flanders), I don't know about France and Verdun.

The system with the shells being gathered on the side of the road is in my opinion rather safe. Or do you prefer that the farmer should take the risk of driving around with the shells on their shaking tractor?

Anyway, in the last years, there are more and more accidents because of workmen who are not from this region and don't know the risks, start fumbling with the shells.

Jan

The farmers are well aware of the risks. They have lived with them for a century and more. Many have a special trailer with straw bales and the like to minimise any shaking.

[AOK4]

15 minutes ago, healdav said:

The farmers are well aware of the risks. They have lived with them for a century and more. Many have a special trailer with straw bales and the like to minimise any shaking.

I don't know from where you have this information, but I can assure you (having worked on farms, having relatives who are farmers etc) that here in Flanders none of the farmers use such a special trailer.

[healdav]

3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

I don't know from where you have this information, but I can assure you (having worked on farms, having relatives who are farmers etc) that here in Flanders none of the farmers use such a special trailer.

Not kept for the purpose, but easily 'converted' when needeed.

I see quite a lot doing this around Verdun.-

[chaz]

5 years ago I was trawling the internet and saw the same coloured map with the red Zone Rouge, admittedly I have not looked since.

even last year it surprised me that the farmers are leaving munitions on cemetery walls and beside them. Im sure they could be left in open country so as not to do damage to a cemetery. We were at Redan Ridge and one of the cemetery walls was down, during the week , another shell was left on another wall, then, a couple more left down on the small Cavaliare on the junction.

Then there was the instance of someone leaving a hand grenade on one of the pillars at Vis-en-Artois, thus having to walk all the way through the cemetery to get to it. Our worst experience was pulling over leaving room for another vehicle to pass and looking down on the floor, my front wheel was an inch away from an 8inch complete round.