Shoulder pips query etc

[asanewt]

Thanks for looking. A family member has these items. Some, we think,  make sense, Opinions, especially pips, appreciated please.

[FROGSMILE]

Two fairly standard officers rank stars (based on star of the Order of the Bath) in gilding metal, and two lapel pins from the Training Reserve (TR) 1916-17.  The cross 1914-18 seems to be some kind of commemorative pendant and not British army issue. 

Edited 29 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

From the web

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

From the web

Was this a German award for all their participants between those dates, in a similar way to the British 14-15 Star? 

Edited 29 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Was this a German award for all their participants between those dates, in a similar way to the British 14-15 Star?

Still trying to find out more about the criteria for the award.

From Wiki

The Honour Cross of the World War 1914/1918 (German: Das Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges 1914/1918), commonly but incorrectly known as the Hindenburg Cross or the German WWI Service Cross, was established by Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg, President of the German Weimar Republic, by an order dated 13 July 1934, to commemorate service of the German people during the First World War.[1] This was Germany's first official service medal for soldiers of Imperial Germany who had taken part in the war, and where they had since died it was also awarded to their surviving next-of-kin.[1] Shortly after its issuance, the government of Nazi Germany declared the award as the only official service decoration of the First World War and further forbade the continued wearing of most German Free Corps awards on any military or paramilitary uniform of a state or Nazi Party organization.

Link to more information:

The Honour Cross of the World War 1914/1918 - Wikipedia

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Still trying to find out more about the criteria for the award.

From Wiki

The Honour Cross of the World War 1914/1918 (German: Das Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges 1914/1918), commonly but incorrectly known as the Hindenburg Cross or the German WWI Service Cross, was established by Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg, President of the German Weimar Republic, by an order dated 13 July 1934, to commemorate service of the German people during the First World War.[1] This was Germany's first official service medal for soldiers of Imperial Germany who had taken part in the war, and where they had since died it was also awarded to their surviving next-of-kin.[1] Shortly after its issuance, the government of Nazi Germany declared the award as the only official service decoration of the First World War and further forbade the continued wearing of most German Free Corps awards on any military or paramilitary uniform of a state or Nazi Party organization.

Link to more information:

The Honour Cross of the World War 1914/1918 - Wikipedia

Thanks Allan, I vaguely recall hearing of it now.  Looks more imposing when it’s with the ribbon.

[asanewt]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Two fairly standard officers rank stars (based on star of the Order of the Bath) in gilding metal, and two lapel pins from the Training Reserve (TR) 1916-17.  The cross 1914-18 seems to be some kind of commemorative pendant and not British army issue. 

Thanks for the replies, both. The German cross, I believe, was also known as 'Mother's Medal'. Which are (TR) pins please? They would fit with their grandfather mentioned here a few years ago,

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, asanewt said:

Thanks for the replies, both. The German cross, I believe, was also known as 'Mother's Medal'. Which are (TR) pins please? They would fit with their grandfather mentioned here a few years ago,

Apologies asanewt, they’re not TR pins, as I first thought because of the red circular edging.  It seems that the red edging was a not uncommon feature on some other pins such as those you have.

Yours seem to relate to a confectioners society and the coronation of Edward VIII in 1937, as far as I can see.

Edited 29 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

Edward VIII abdicated in December 1936, and was never crowned.

[asanewt]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Apologies asanewt, they’re not TR pins, as I first thought because of the red circular edging.  It seems that the red edging was a not uncommon feature on some other pins such as those you have.

Yours seem to relate to a confectioners society and the coronation of Edward VIII in 1937, as far as I can see.

Agreed and appreciated both. Again

Edited 30 December , 2023 by asanewt
typo

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Edward VIII abdicated in December 1936, and was never crowned.

Yes I didn’t think he had a coronation, but a lot of inscribed metalwork (and crockery/glassware) was produced in anticipation, including coinage and military insignia.  I imagine that memorabilia such as lapel pins were manufactured too.  I think that’s what is inscribed on one of the two pins.

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Rockford]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I didn’t think he had a coronation, but a lot of inscribed metalwork (and crockery/glassware) was produced in anticipation, including coinage and military insignia.  I imagine that memorabilia such as lapel pins were manufactured too.  I think that’s what is inscribed on one of the two pins.

Yes, a lot of memorabilia was produced for the coronation of Edward VIII and items would have been 'in circulation' prior to the abdication. Given the preparations that had already taken place, the date planned for Edward was used for the coronation of GVI and Queen Elizabeth.

I have an Edward VIII coronation mug that I bought for a few pounds for the curiosity value - I don't think such items are all that rare as there would have been loads produced.

Best wishes

Brian

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Rockford said:

Yes, a lot of memorabilia was produced for the coronation of Edward VIII and items would have been 'in circulation' prior to the abdication. Given the preparations that had already taken place, the date planned for Edward was used for the coronation of GVI and Queen Elizabeth.

I have an Edward VIII coronation mug that I bought for a few pounds for the curiosity value - I don't think such items are all that rare as there would have been loads produced.

Best wishes

Brian

Thanks Brian, that was my understanding too.  I still possess a very finely etched drinking glass marked with Edward VIII coronation commemorative details that was my father’s.  As you say, I don’t think such items are uncommon, although survivors must be in danger as time passes.

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[asanewt]

Thanks for all input. Some interesting connections though some accidental. The enquier's grandfather served 112/TR Bn ASC  till just after arrival in France 1917 so near miss @Frogsmile.

The grandfather was certainly a baker post war.

He  has a  school photo of his mother in commemorative card frame of King Edward Vlll so the lapel pin is probably hers.

The family have a cap badge and second bayonet not to hand at the moment. 

No clue to connection with the German cross, shoulder pips, or marksman shield as yet.

The pips appear to have corn sheaves reminiscent of Cheshire Regt. Any opinion on that pleas?

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, asanewt said:

Thanks for all input. Some interesting connections though some accidental. The enquier's grandfather served 112/TR Bn ASC  till just after arrival in France 1917 so near miss @Frogsmile.

The grandfather was certainly a baker post war.

He  has a  school photo of his mother in commemorative card frame of King Edward Vlll so the lapel pin is probably hers.

The family have a cap badge and second bayonet not to hand at the moment. 

No clue to connection with the German cross, shoulder pips, or marksman shield as yet.

The pips appear to have corn sheaves reminiscent of Cheshire Regt. Any opinion on that pleas?

I think the corn sheaves might be referring to three crowns, which relate to the then three kingdoms of the U.K. - England, Ireland and Scotland**. Hence the motto Tria Juncta in Uno, meaning “three joined in one”. 

**an alternative explanation is the Christian holy trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. 

Edited 31 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Brian, that was my understanding too.  I still possess a very finely etched drinking glass marked with Edward VIII coronation commemorative details that was my father’s.  As you say, I don’t think such items are uncommon, although survivors must be in danger as time passes.

There are approximately 130 Postboxes  cast with the Royal Cypher of Edward VIII, still in use in the UK. 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

There are approximately 130 Postboxes  cast with the Royal Cypher of Edward VIII, still in use in the UK. 

Yes I think that the infrastructure changes were well underway, that’s for sure.

[asanewt]

Ah yes! Makes perfect sense. Thanks again @Frogsmile

Edited 30 December , 2023 by asanewt

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think the corn sheaves might be referring to three crowns, which relate to the then three kingdoms of the U.K. - England, Ireland and Scotland**. Hence the motto Tria Juncta in Uno, meaning “three joined in one”. 

**an alternative explanation is the Christian holy trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. 

Digression.

Also used for the three original Foot Guards, GG, CG, SFG/SG .............. same motto is on their trained soldier Guards badge, changed to quinque when IG WG added, changed to septem when [as I understand it] the two Household Cavalry regiments joined the Household Division. My relevant reference books not to hand. 

A set of all three handsome badges is a nice thing to have. Also not to hand.

[JMB1943]

Asanewt,

The general appearance of the scabbard and some specific details,

1) cross-guard,

2) slotted screw heads, rather than rivets,

3) wooden grips.

4) almost rectangular look of the pommel,

5) overall length

are consistent with this being a Ross rifle bayonet, brought to England by the Canadian Expeditionary Force with their Ross rifles.

Incidentally, the bayonet seems to be missing the locking button from the top of the pommel.

The Ross bayonets are unusual in that maker name/date/proof marks etc are inscribed entirely on the pommel, not on the ricasso (flat of the blade near the cross-guard).

Viewer's mark crown/8 indicates Mk. I bayonet (1908-10), while crown/4 indicates MK. II bayonet (1910-17); you may well also find these on the scabbard.

Photos of the bayonet full length, and especially of the pommel area would be useful to confirm (or not) the identification.

Regards,

JMB

Edited 10 January by JMB1943
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