chasman Posted 27 December , 2023 Share Posted 27 December , 2023 Difficult trying to pin down the whereabouts of 19th Coy. MGC at the opening of the German Spring offensive March 21 1918. At that time they had recently been absorbed into the 33th Battalion MGC to whom it would appear were not in action until the opening stages of the Battle of the Lys in April. However, the men of the 19th were taking casualties on March 22/23. I can therefore only assume they were hastily readied to cover the retreating British, in appalling foggy weather conditions, but I can't seem to find out where their actual location was, nor that of the 33rd Division as a whole. Can anyone help please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 27 December , 2023 Share Posted 27 December , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, chasman said: Difficult trying to pin down the whereabouts of 19th Coy. MGC at the opening of the German Spring offensive March 21 1918. At that time they had recently been absorbed into the 33th Battalion MGC to whom it would appear were not in action until the opening stages of the Battle of the Lys in April. However, the men of the 19th were taking casualties on March 22/23. I can therefore only assume they were hastily readied to cover the retreating British, in appalling foggy weather conditions, but I can't seem to find out where their actual location was, nor that of the 33rd Division as a whole. Can anyone help please? Hi chasman. The WD for the 33rd Battalion, MGC for the period 01/02/18 to 31/08/19 is held by the National Archives, free to download once registered, at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353812 On the 21/03/18 the battalion were at Potijze. I have attached the map correct as at 19/05/18 courtesy of Trench Mapper, WFA. Hope this is of some use. Gunner Edited 27 December , 2023 by Gunner 87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 28 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2023 Thanks Gunner 87. I have registered and found the title page but that is as far as it goes, nothing else is revealed. Maybe this could be because as I am reliably informed all MGC records were destroyed in a fire in 1920, some think deliberately so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 28 December , 2023 Share Posted 28 December , 2023 You can download the entire diary from that link, if you follow the on-site instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 28 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2023 Thanks Chris, but I can't, it will not allow me to, even though I have registered, a very clumsy set-up, it's frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 28 December , 2023 Admin Share Posted 28 December , 2023 Have you ticked the accept terms and conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 28 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2023 Yes, it will not let me access, if there is anything to access? I don't think any information exists other than the header. Makes me suspicious. Something happened on the 22/23 March that shouldn't have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 28 December , 2023 Admin Share Posted 28 December , 2023 Works absolutely fine for me. I would suggest you clear cache and cookies then have another try. Image courtesy of the National Archives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 28 December , 2023 Admin Share Posted 28 December , 2023 13 minutes ago, chasman said: Yes, it will not let me access, if there is anything to access? I don't think any information exists other than the header. Makes me suspicious. Something happened on the 22/23 March that shouldn't have happened. The entire document is something like 200 pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 28 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2023 Thanks Michelle, I finally got it and the copy you have provided also. The diary doesn't mention any casualties for the 22/23 March, although the position they were holding east of Ypres was heavily shelled on the 23rd. I know of a Second-Lieutenant casualty from March 22, promoted from the ranks and in the field at Arras in 1917, he was a 'Number 1' - a highly experienced gunner. This man is commemorated miles away on the Arras Memorial, obviously having no grave. Looking at the diary on the date of his death it doesn't appear the battalion was in action... so why is he on the Arras memorial over 60-miles from the holding position?... And why is there no mention of his death - an Officer - on that date? Makes me wonder if the 19th Coy., were NOT actually with the battalion at that time, perhaps they had been seconded south to cover the retreat? Something not quite right about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 28 December , 2023 Admin Share Posted 28 December , 2023 28 minutes ago, chasman said: I know of a Second-Lieutenant casualty from March 22, promoted from the ranks and in the field at Arras in 1917, he was a 'Number 1' - a highly experienced gunner. This man is commemorated miles away on the Arras Memorial, obviously having no grave I think you may have fallen foul of a common mistake in the CWGC entries, where Company is interposed with Battalion, this was carried on until at least September 1918 in their Roll of Honour. You have decided not to share his name which makes for a little more work for all concerned but I assume you are referring to 2nd Lieutenant Nutter who was killed whilst serving with the 19th Battalion MGC This extract from their war diary TNA WO95/2071/:- I hope you will be able to access their war diary with the advice given https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353031 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 28 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2023 Thanks very much for the reply. You have been of great assistance. The officer wasn't 2/Lt. Nutter it was his comrade named upon the same correspondence - 2/Lt. Charles Percy Pare. I have his Victory Medal in my collection. Do you know where this desperate action took place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 28 December , 2023 Admin Share Posted 28 December , 2023 1 hour ago, chasman said: Thanks very much for the reply. You have been of great assistance. The officer wasn't 2/Lt. Nutter it was his comrade named upon the same correspondence - 2/Lt. Charles Percy Pare. I have his Victory Medal in my collection. Do you know where this desperate action took place? I believe the guns were in the map square J map NW4 roughly just to the South of Beaumetz lez Cambrai. The extract above is from a report of operations in the war diary. As for mapping I rely on the experts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 Many thanks Kenf48. I also extend my thanks to MGC Historian, Graham Sacker, whom I contacted on another link. He informed me of the confusion from information given by the CWGC (that I have encountered in other cases). 2/Lt. Pare was in fact as you also pointed out in the 19th BATTALION not Company of the MGC. It has now been ascertained that he served initially in 166 MGC Company, 55th Division, before transferring to 57 Company 19th Division and eventually 19th MGC Battalion. 2/Lt. Nutter commanding an adjoining section was only 19-years old when he was killed alongside the 38-years old Charles Pare. Once again my most sincere gratitude to you all upon this forum for assisting me once again in compiling the correct information for those who fell, and of whom I proudly hold custodianship of medals to. This means ever so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 29 March Author Share Posted 29 March Trying to pin down the map square reference J Map NW4 - 'B-Coy' 19th Btn. MGC - early morning 22.03.18 just south of Beaumetz Les Cambrai, as referenced by kenf48 where 2/Lt. Pare fell. Can anyone help, thanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 29 March Admin Share Posted 29 March 47 minutes ago, chasman said: Trying to pin down the map square reference J Map NW4 - 'B-Coy' 19th Btn. MGC - early morning 22.03.18 just south of Beaumetz Les Cambrai, as referenced by kenf48 where 2/Lt. Pare fell. Can anyone help, thanks? Bad form to quote oneself but on this occasion On 28/12/2023 at 21:30, kenf48 said: As for mapping I rely on the experts @WhiteStarLine please Bill It is actually for clarity just the one reference 57C NE J.20.b, 66 This is a map at McMasters from 1917 Hermies http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A69454/-/collection I assume you know how to read a trench map but just in case https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/ There are more sophisticated applications but as I said I leave those to the experts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 29 March Author Share Posted 29 March Excellent Ken, this goes along with the war diary map references. B-Coy 19Btn., were positioned with 8 guns in J20b - four at J.20.b.66 and four at J.20.b (this is where 2/Lt. Pare fell at J.20b), so this being to the south-east of the village. Not too far away the four guns at J.21d.2.2, slightly to the south were all knocked out, J.20.b were next in line as they had good targets, so I will deduce that 2/Lt. Pare was at the southern end of the b sector in open ground, I can probably get him within 100 yards of where he fell, would have been closer if the co-ordinates had the end references upon them. However, this is very good information, very pleased, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 29 March Admin Share Posted 29 March 1 hour ago, chasman said: However, this is very good information, very pleased, thank you. Hopefully the real expert will be along soon but there is a time difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 29 March Author Share Posted 29 March Yes, thanks I appreciate the time difference, but the location on open ground surely remains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 29 March Admin Share Posted 29 March Oh yes that is the location, no doubt but I think more sophisticated applications cab overlay Google maps etc especially helpful if you intend to walk the ground which is always rewarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 29 March Author Share Posted 29 March I agree, it's a pretty remote place, not been to this one before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 29 March Admin Share Posted 29 March The railway line beds still remain which might make access easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasman Posted 29 March Author Share Posted 29 March Thanks for that, useful to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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