British Company in 1914

[Captain Chip]

Ok... what musician ranks would I see for those in a company?

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

Ok... what musician ranks would I see for those in a company?

From private up to warrant officer.  The band overall was headed by the Bandmaster, who was a warrant officer equal in rank, but junior by appointment, to the sergeant major of battalion (aka Regimental Sergeant Major after 1915).  The Bandmaster was assisted with administration by the Band Sergeant, who was one of the headquarters staff sergeants explained above. 

Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

Ok. Interesting.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

Ok. Interesting.

Prewar a regular battalion presented its brand and status via its regimental band and so the Bandmaster (whose dress was of the highest quality) had a very high status as he embodied the battalion’s front of house in the context of how it wished to be seen by others. 

Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

Ok. So it was Bandmaster as the only rank that the musicians could advance to?

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

Ok. So it was Bandmaster as the only rank that the musicians could advance to?

It was the most senior appointment (not rank, which as I’ve explained was warrant officer) for an enlisted man.  The very best Bandmasters could apply for a specialist officers commission as a “Director of Music”.  These latter were in charge of the larger Staff Bands such as the Household Cavalry, Foot Guards, and Royal Artillery.  Over a career a bandsman who reached the higher ranks (not easy to do) might serve with two, or three different regiments at the higher levels.

Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Although there is a little wobble between the members of the band being called  "bandsmen" or "musicians", the word used officially was bandsman. Their status was lowly, paid no more than a rifle and bayonet private, and less than a drummer. BUT many were long-serving, gaining up to six good conduct badges, which until a period c. 1906 paid a penny extra each per day. Old soldiers had reserved rights to this extra emolument, but after c. 1908 a man qualified for the badge but not the penny. The sting was slightly eased by the simultaneous introduction of Proficiency Pay, but that is another long story.

Try SEARCH for "musician", it should hold some info.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s my understanding that at that time members of the Staff Bands, mostly Household troops, but also the largest corps, held the status of Musician, and a member of a Regimental Band was a Bandsman.  I don’t know when that protocol came about or how the career progression was managed, but I understand it was overwatched at the then School of Army Music at Kneller Hall. 

[Captain Chip]

Huh. Ok, thanks, and again I must ask another question. Not only am I doing this for miniatures, but also for a book I would like to write. What rank would the drivers have in the company? And did they fight alongside the other men?

[Muerrisch]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s my understanding that at that time members of the Staff Bands, mostly Household troops, but also the largest corps, held the status of Musician, and a member of a Regimental Band was a Bandsman.  I don’t know when that protocol came about or how the career progression was managed, but I understand it was overwatched at the then School of Army Music at Kneller Hall. 

 

Bandsman officially in Establishments and Pay Warrants but either in our period or a little later "musicians" came into use. I doubt if the pay went up. I am off to search "musicians".

[Muerrisch]

3 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

Huh. Ok, thanks, and again I must ask another question. Not only am I doing this for miniatures, but also for a book I would like to write. What rank would the drivers have in the company? And did they fight alongside the other men?

Drivers as such were Army Service Corps attached, fully trained in musketry but had much better things to do than be in the firing line except in extremis.

However, they were indeed responsible for the protection of Royal Army Medical Corps Field Ambulance units.

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

Huh. Ok, thanks, and again I must ask another question. Not only am I doing this for miniatures, but also for a book I would like to write. What rank would the drivers have in the company? And did they fight alongside the other men?

All the men on the establishment were first and foremost infantry soldiers so in an infantry battalion a driver was an extra qualification and nothing to do with their rank.  Most drivers would be privates but within the transport section some may have been promoted to junior NCO.  These are the regimental personnel and not the attached ASC personnel.  These men were equipped with riding breeches and bandoliers rather than the web equipment issued to the rest of the battalion.  They were commanded by a junior officer co-opted from an infantry company plus a sergeant as his deputy.  In the field they were based at the transport lines at 2nd-Line and usually collocated with the quartermaster and his small staff. 

Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

Ok. Understood.

[Muerrisch]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

All the men on the establishment were first and foremost infantry soldiers so in an infantry battalion a driver was an extra qualification and nothing to do with their rank.  Most drivers would be privates but within the transport section some may have been promoted to junior NCO.  These are the regimental personnel and not the ASC personnel. 

I think we agree ................. but "driver" was ASC and didn't have a rank in the company as posited above, and there were not many of them, just specialists for the heavier wagons, whereas some regimental personnel were needed to drive all other vehicles. In those days a very large proportion of young men* were familiar with horses and horse transport of course..

* and women.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

I think we agree ................. but "driver" was ASC and didn't have a rank in the company as posited above, and there were not many of them, just specialists for the heavier wagons, whereas some regimental personnel were needed to drive all other vehicles. In those days a very large proportion of young men* were familiar with horses and horse transport of course..

* and women.

Yes we agree completely.  GS wagons were mostly ASC, whereas things like field kitchens and water carts, etc. were regimental drivers (infantry privates qualified to “drive”).

Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

The Transport, under a subaltern officer (who also had a platoon to command) was a very large organisation. It included 13 riding horses [two for the commanding officer, one each for 2/ic, adjutant, Quuartermaster,  Medical Officer, MG Officer, Transport Officer, Transport Sergeant and the four company commanders], 26 draught horses, eight heavy draught horses and nine pack cobs or mules. There were nine bicycles for the signallers, 26 drivers [of whom four or six were ASC] and 16 vehicles. These latter included carts or limbers for ammunition, water and medical supplies, large General Service wagons, travelling kitchens, a machine-gun cart and, in war, any extra useful vehicles picked up along the way. Inevitably there were assorted dogs and cats, and the men themselves tended to be older. They sometimes included those considered by the medical officer to need a break behind the lines in the comforting company of animals.

Lord Reith, regarded as the founding father of the BBC, was proud to be a Transport Officer.

[Muerrisch]

On 04/01/2024 at 19:03, FROGSMILE said:

It was the most senior appointment (not rank, which as I’ve explained was warrant officer) for an enlisted man.  The very best Bandmasters could apply for a specialist officers commission as a “Director of Music”.  These latter were in charge of the larger Staff Bands such as the Household Cavalry, Foot Guards, and Royal Artillery.  Over a career a bandsman who reached the higher ranks (not easy to do) might serve with two, or three different regiments at the higher levels.

Bandmaster commisions as 2nd Lieutenants with outfit allowance appear to have been introduced by Army Order 182 of Nov 1899.  The qualification was 'specially meritorious service'.

Interesting to note that neither "Director of Music" nor his non-combatant status [I take both as a given] get a mention. I expect a later AO will spell these matters out.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Bandmaster commisions as 2nd Lieutenants with outfit allowance appear to have been introduced by Army Order 182 of Nov 1899.  The qualification was 'specially meritorious service'.

Interesting to note that neither "Director of Music" nor his non-combatant status [I take both as a given] get a mention. I expect a later AO will spell these matters out.

I don’t know how they were selected for the specific staff bands (i.e. who got what), but in two individual accounts I read that there had to be an element of declared individual aspiration to seek such an appointment and apply.  I imagine that there was probably a selection board of some kind administered through the School of Army Music at Kneller Hall, where the associated courses at a more advanced level were held.  There also seems to have been a link with the Royal Marines School of Music at Deal, as some individuals crossed over between Services, including to the Foot Guards.

Edited 18 January by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Whilst looking for something else in my rather large Establishments file, I came across Foot Guards 1909. I believe this to be 'Peace', and was surprised to note all regiments  have a Bandmaster, a WO,  established .......... this at RHQ of course as the Guards had regimental bands, not unit bands. No mention of a 2nd Lt /Ensign being a Director of Music.

Thus I wonder when 'Directors of Music' began to appear in official accounts, lists etc. Is our knowledge of the present influencing our take on the past? I shall add to my list of things I ought to know: when did these Directors first appear? Was there a Director AND a bandmaster for the band. A further complication is no specific provision for band sergeants.

Curious.

Just checked Foot Guards Peace [sic] 1914 .................... still just a bandmaster and he was still a WO. Given the nature of the presentation of Estabs, if a 2 Lt music man was lurking among the 2Lts established, he would be bound to be footnoted, as was, for example, the Transport Officer.

 

EDIT. The Gospel according to Google. Might be correct! I shall check AOs 1914 tomorrow.

Senior Director of Music[edit]

In 1887, the first bandmaster was commissioned; Daniel Godfrey of the Grenadier Guards received the title as a personal award coming with a Jubilee Medal as part of Queen Victoria’s Golden Jubilee Honours.^[8] In the Foot Guards, personal commissions would later be granted to Lieutenant Colonel John Mackenzie Rogan and Captain Albert Williams.^{[citation needed]} As a result, on 6 June 1914, the term "Director of Music" was introduced to distinguish those with a commissioned rank from warrant officers.^[

Edited 18 January by Muerrisch
supplement

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Whilst looking for something else in my rather large Establishments file, I came across Foot Guards 1909. I believe this to be 'Peace', and was surprised to note all regiments  have a Bandmaster, a WO,  established .......... this at RHQ of course as the Guards had regimental bands, not unit bands. No mention of a 2nd Lt /Ensign being a Director of Music.

Thus I wonder when 'Directors of Music' began to appear in official accounts, lists etc. Is our knowledge of the present influencing our take on the past? I shall add to my list of things I ought to know: when did these Directors first appear? Was there a Director AND a bandmaster for the band. A further complication is no specific provision for band sergeants.

Curious.

Just checked Foot Guards Peace [sic] 1914 .................... still just a bandmaster and he was still a WO. Given the nature of the presentation of Estabs, if a 2 Lt music man was lurking among the 2Lts established, he would be bound to be footnoted, as was, for example, the Transport Officer.

 

EDIT. The Gospel according to Google. Might be correct! I shall check AOs 1914 tomorrow.

Senior Director of Music[edit]

In 1887, the first bandmaster was commissioned; Daniel Godfrey of the Grenadier Guards received the title as a personal award coming with a Jubilee Medal as part of Queen Victoria’s Golden Jubilee Honours.^[8] In the Foot Guards, personal commissions would later be granted to Lieutenant Colonel John Mackenzie Rogan and Captain Albert Williams.^{[citation needed]} As a result, on 6 June 1914, the term "Director of Music" was introduced to distinguish those with a commissioned rank from warrant officers.^[

Thank you, I knew it existed by end of WW1 and had discussed it privately with @Glenn J, but I didn’t know the precise date, so that’s useful to confirm.

I don’t know how the link and relationship between Kneller Hall and the Foot Guards unique regimental bands manifested itself though.  It functioned, but in what form is unclear.

Edited 18 January by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

AO 175/ 1914 auth 16th May published June

Appointment of Directors of  Music.

Specially meritorious Bandmaster under 55 years may be granted commission as D o M with hon. rank lieutenant. 

All conditions of service as QM. Includes promotions etc.

Must retire no later than 65 years.

The long-running perk of an extra £70 per annum to be lost when appointed. [This was paid since QVR 1883 by the way]

I would like to see a Foot Guards Peace Establishment post 1918 if anyone has such a thing.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

AO 175/ 1914 auth 16th May published June

Appointment of Directors of  Music.

Specially meritorious Bandmaster under 55 years may be granted commission as D o M with hon. rank lieutenant. 

All conditions of service as QM. Includes promotions etc.

Must retire no later than 65 years.

The long-running perk of an extra £70 per annum to be lost when appointed. [This was paid since QVR 1883 by the way]

I would like to see a Foot Guards Peace Establishment post 1918 if anyone has such a thing.

Was this Foot Guards only, or also the other Staff Bands such as, e.g. Royal Artillery and Royal Marines?  Perhaps they were only included between the Wars.

Edited 19 January by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Was this Foot Guards only, or also the other Staff Bands such as, e.g. Royal Artillery and Royal Marines?  Perhaps they were only included between the Wars.

Absolutely for all Regular Army : "regiments and corps" - wide. As I read it, any bandmaster of any unit [unit as defined by KR] could be put forward. There may well be later amendments, but at least I have nailed down Day One. 

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Absolutely for all Regular Army : "regiments and corps" - wide. As I read it, any bandmaster of any unit [unit as defined by KR] could be put forward. There may well be later amendments, but at least I have nailed down Day One. 

Yes, I do understand that all were open to the opportunity, I meant was it just at that time the Foot Guards bands that had DofM, or was it jointly a policy established with the other Staff Bands?  I know that it certainly was eventually, but I’m curious if the policy was introduced simultaneously right across all of the large (Staff) Bands. 

Edited 19 January by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Understood. Without deep diving I think we are only talking Peace Establishments and, given the June 1914 date of intro. of D o Ms  I doubt if  a new Peace Establishment was written for a Guards regiment for at least four years. At which date my reference library gets very threadbare because anything after 1919 is nice but not necessary in my sight. The Napoleonic  Wars to 1919 is long enough for any  mere amateur.

Hence my asking around for such a document or reference a few posts up [awkward not having numbered # posts these days]