David Wheeler 17th Lancers BWM or trio

[chaz]

I have a BWM to D R Wheeler L/2261 17th Lancers.

his MIC says he is entitled to a 15 star trio, he has three rolls..

the 14/15 star roll says Hospital Ship HS Latitia Dis.392 (xxv)K.R.

there is a BWM/Vic roll this states he is serving, BWM medal retd, to be reissued

then a BWM roll also stating to be reissued.

there is a further list under a number 2261 31195 which has stamps for all three medals.

As I understand it he was born in India , started serving there then the lancers moved to France, then returned to India at the end.

I am trying to work out if he received all three medals, received two and returned one or the medal office held one back, if so why one and not all three.

images from Ancestry

 

[cabbell2207]

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/73519 

Would this be of any help sir?

[chaz]

I dont think it was returned under KR, 

looks like both BWM and Vic were returned to be re-issued from the India office, the star does not seem to be returned.

my other thoughts are why was the star issued to a hospital ship as a "theatre of war"  also what was the I W List and what was his rank, S/Crncbe ?

[rolt968]

4 hours ago, chaz said:

 

my other thoughts are why was the star issued to a hospital ship as a "theatre of war"  also what was the I W List and what was his rank, S/Crncbe ?

I'm not 100% sure what the letters are but isn't it an abbreviation for Sub Conductor? (Reverse of MRIC above)

Could I W List have something to do with Indian Warrant Officers?

RM

Edit: Is it IWL? It looks more like IUL to me.

Edit 2: Could it be Indian [Army] Unattached List?

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Unattached_List

Edited 27 December , 2023 by rolt968

[chaz]

not familiar with the Indian branch, but now you mention it, its probably IU List and conductor.

just leaves the HS Letitia theatre of war to work out.

HMHS Letita looks to have come under the Canadians but did not rescue anyone until November 1916, having been at the Dardanelles , would it have been classified as a Theatre of War being a Hospital Ship, which raises the question, why was a Lancer on board to qualify for a medal?? 

[rolt968]

I'm not sure where this gets us:

James David Roland Wheeler, Staff Sergeant, Military Works aged 29 years 6 months married Milicent McRobie at St Thomas' Mount, Madras on 15 January 1917. (India Office Marriages, British Library and FmP)

Edit: He died on 20 February 1926, aged 39 of a fracture of the base of the skull. He was a sub-conductor MGS or MES or MSS (I can't be sure of the middle letter.) (India office Deaths -FmP)

RM

Edit: Mistyped James for David. (Trying to do two pieces of rsearch at once!

Edited 27 December , 2023 by rolt968

[chaz]

thanks RM 

as David was born in India, I presume James is a brother?  I see from Ancestry trees, it is David Roland Wheeler who married Mary Millicent McRobie. he died in 1925.

 

[rolt968]

59 minutes ago, chaz said:

thanks RM 

as David was born in India, I presume James is a brother?  I see from Ancestry trees, it is David Roland Wheeler who married Mary Millicent McRobie. he died in 1925.

 

I mistyped James for David. (Try to research and type up two threads at once!) Have corrected it.

 

David was born 1 June 1887, baptised in Dinapore, parents Arthur and Sopia Emily. Father: barrack sergeant. (India Office Births and Baptisms (FmP.))

Where did the ancestry tree get that he died in 1925? India Office record says 1926.

RM

[chaz]

RM

no proof other than

Death

David Roland Wheeler died in 1925 in India when he was 37 years old.

Abt. 1925 • India

[rolt968]

7 hours ago, chaz said:

RM

no proof other than

Death

David Roland Wheeler died in 1925 in India when he was 37 years old.

Abt. 1925 • India

One of the interesting features of ancestry trees. "About" becomes a definite in the summaries. Even worse, ranges of dates become the lowest.

Returning to the original documents, what do you make of the reason for his discharge from 17 Lancers? ".......Para XV"?

"(xv) Free, after ____ years’ service under Article 1130 (ii), Pay Warrant (with subclauses as below)

• (xva) Free under Article 1130 (i), Pay Warrant
• (xvb) Free to take up civil employment which cannot be held open

From the Long Long Trail:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/records-of-the-silver-war-badge/

RM

 

[chaz]

RM

from the star roll   is the only mention of Kings Regs

its Para xxv  I take to be  "services no longer required".  no mention on either bwm/bwm-vic roll about KRxxv only the star roll. 

Im also double researching another soldier with a KR issue.. I know the feeling.

[rolt968]

19 hours ago, chaz said:

RM

from the star roll   is the only mention of Kings Regs

its Para xxv  I take to be  "services no longer required".  no mention on either bwm/bwm-vic roll about KRxxv only the star roll. 

Im also double researching another soldier with a KR issue.. I know the feeling.

I don't really know but I don't think that is the paragraph used for no further use. I was thinking it was nearer to time served except that it was before the end of 12 years?

Looking at the documents it looks as if having gone to France, he was allowed to return to India to take some appointment. Initially someone thought he had been in India throughout the war and hence he is on the Medal Roll page for BWM only which includes men from 21 Lancers. It was eventually resolved - hence the other Medal Roll pages. I wonder if since he was born in India he intended to reutn to India post war.

RM

Edited 29 December , 2023 by rolt968

[chaz]

only going by this for KR

https://www.military-researcher.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/Para392Introduction.html

as said before, India is not my strong point, may have to look for a book or two.