Richard Maurice DOWNING

[Tim Downing]

Hello. I’ve found a military record of my great uncle which was indicates that he enlisted in 1918 on his 18th birthday and served on President II.

He was born 11 Feb 1900.

I think that his regimental number is 50721 but I’m not sure.

I would appreciate any additional information or pointers to records that anyone might have. 
 

Tim

[busterfield]

National archives free download.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6847947

further RAF record on findmypast which states casualty card destroyed.

[KizmeRD]

He actually joined the RNAS prior to his 18th birthday (as a Boy Mechanic) and would have started with a brief period of basic recruit training at Crystal Palace (President II) before undergoing initial technical training at RNAS Depot Tregantle (Cornwall) - thence into RAF service 1 Apr 1918.

He was re-rated from Boy Mechanic to Air Mechanic (2nd Class) on his 18th birthday (11 Feb 1918) the date when his adult engagement period begins.

MB

Edited 24 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

A messy record which, as @KizmeRD notes, shows him enlisting as a Boy Mechanic on (I think) 25 January 1918. However, from his 18th birthday he became an RNAS Aircraftman Grade II (AC II) - not a mechanic. Despite his civilian trade of fitter and turner, he must have been quickly judged unsuitable for a tachnical rate. His entry in the RAF Muster Roll - 

 https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000179114-downing-r.m   -   confirms that his RNAS rank and trade were AC 2 Labourer (a non-technical trade).  Hence his transfer to RAF Private 2nd Class rather than to RAF Air Mechanic.

On 23/12/2023 at 10:21, Tim Downing said:

I think that his regimental number is 50721 but I’m not sure.

Where didd you find that number? RNAS Official Number -  F.48029.    RAF No. -   248029

Edit - enlistment date

Edited 24 December , 2023 by horatio2

[horatio2]

 He declared his civilian trade to be a fitter and turner but he was probably only in the early weeeks an apprenticeship and actually brought a low level of skills into the RNAS.

[KizmeRD]

Yes, thanks  for the clarification h2 - having seen his  civilian occupation was ‘fitter & turner’ and the fact that he joined the RNAS as a Boy Mechanic, I got fixated on him fulfilling some sort of technical role (albeit he was not a qualified tradesman, in that he hadn’t completed an apprenticeship).

Interestingly, having looked into a number of late-war ‘boy’ recruits joining the RNAS, it appears that they only showed their faces at Crystal Palace for a matter of days (for basic admin & uniform issue?) prior to heading down to Tregantle for initial training. Not much is written about Tregantle and what little there is generally refers to it as being an aircraft storage depot (Really? - If so, then its location doesn’t make a great deal of sense),  but clearly it is being used as a training establishment for young recruits from late 1917 onwards.

MB

[horatio2]

It seems little is to be found to detail Tregantle's RNAS history. Established in Sep 1917 or Jan 1918 (accounts differ), its proximity to the Plymouth base must have conferred some advantages, Its full title was RNAS Depot Tregantle and Withnoe. Tregantle was a Palmerston Fort but even less exists on Withnoe. The Depot must have been of some importance for it to be commanded by a Flag Officer (Rear Adm J de M HUTCHINSON) who later commanded as as an RAF GOC..

[horatio2]

The Admiralty Medal Roll shows that your GU qualified for the British War Medal only. He never claimed it.

Courtesy TNA:-

 

[KizmeRD]

4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

It seems little is to be found to detail Tregantle's RNAS history. Established in Sep 1917 or Jan 1918 (accounts differ), its proximity to the Plymouth base must have conferred some advantages, Its full title was RNAS Depot Tregantle and Withnoe. Tregantle was a Palmerston Fort but even less exists on Withnoe. The Depot must have been of some importance for it to be commanded by a Flag Officer (Rear Adm J de M HUTCHINSON) who later commanded as as an RAF GOC..

Rear Admiral John de Mestre Hutchinson was formerly Commodore RN Barracks Devonport before retiring from the RN (Active List) in May 1916. He was subsequently recalled in order to become ‘Flag Officer RNAS depot Tregantle & Withnoe’, effective Sept 1917, and remaining in a similar position under RAF auspices (as GOC) until finally reverting to Retired List Aug 1918.

Looking through ADM 188 there is a block of service numbers from F48000 to F48150, all of whom were 17 year old recruits joining the RNAS January 1918, all posted to Tregantle - therefore it seems reasonable to me to assume that Tregantle (the Palmerston Fort) was more likely being used as a Training Depot, perhaps with Withnoe (agricultural land and farm buildings) being used for aircraft storage (supporting the nearby airship station).

MB

 

Edited 24 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[KizmeRD]

Further to the above, having now done some further research (analysing many ADM 188’s) it is clear to me that ‘RNAS Tregantle & Withnoe‘ was one combined depot where hundreds of RNAS ratings received their initial training from January 1918 onwards (starting with F44652).

I don’t quite know where the internet got hold of the notion that RNAS Tregantle & Withnoe was an ‘Aircraft Storage Depot’, but it appears to be a spurious and unsubstantiated claim, and I caution people against blindly accepting it as fact.

Interestingly I also came across a IWM oral history tape of one RNAS chap who talks about his time as a new entry trainee at Withnoe (AC II George Edward Brice F44791) - Note: his service sheet simply states ‘Tregantle’ (which I guess is what the Writers must have commonly abbreviated it to).

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80010046. (Minutes 5-15 of the tape refer specifically to Withnoe)

I also discovered that earlier in the war the site at Withnoe Farm was being used by the War Office to accommodate soldiers (including British West Indian Regiment troops).

MB

 

Edited 25 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Tim Downing]

Thank you all! This is very helpful. I had his war service record but had trouble reading some of the handwriting. I found photos of President II and now can also see Tregantle in some of the text. The other information about the transfers, roles and depots is really interesting. I'm in Australia and had visited the UK as a youngster but lack the local knowledge.

I  read that President II was sometimes used as a generic location to record the placement of recruits to back-office accounts and support roles.

Tim

[KizmeRD]

You can largely forget about PRESIDENT II, it was simply the name given to the accounting base that handled all pay related matters for the entire Royal Naval Air Service. No one ever served there unless they were payroll clerks and it had no connection to the ship of the same name (HMS President).

Your GU received his initial kit issue from the RN depot at Crystal Palace (South Lindon) at the end of January 1918 and then went straight to the RNAS training depot for non-technical ratings (RNAS Depot Tregantle and Withnoe) on the Rame peninsula (Cornnwall side of River Tamar, close to Plymouth). He was transferred into the newly formed RAF on 1st April 1918.

During his short time in the RNAS he remained in the UK under training and saw no service aboard any Royal Navy Ship.

MB

 

[horatio2]

On 25/12/2023 at 07:53, KizmeRD said:

RNAS training depot for non-technical ratings (RNAS Depot Tregantle and Withnoe)

I agree that the status of RNAS T&W as a major storage depot for naval aircraft is tenuous, to say the least. However, it was not just a school establishment for non-technical ratings (mainly RNAS aircraftmen (AC) destined to become privates RAF). There is ample evidence in the ADM 188 records of RNAS aircraft mechanics being drafted there as early as September1917 for initial training. An RNAS officer was appointed to T&W as Drafting and Regulating Officer on 25 September 1917.

Given that some measure of technical training was given to aircraft mechanics at T&W, it is probable that several aircraft (or sections thereof, perhaps obsolete) were based there as training aids, albeit not in the numbers to justify status as a "Storage Depot"

In the "Index to Stations" published in "Disposition of RNAS Aircraft As Reported 30 March 1918" (TNA AIR 1/670) [dated 4 April 1918 on transfer to the RAF], RNAS training rstablishents are classified as "School" and T&W is not one of these. Rather it is classified as a "Depot" included with (inter alia) Acceptance, Experimental, Armament and  Test Flight Depots. Interestingly,Crystal Palace is also classified as a "Depot", not as a "School", so perhaps T&W and CP should be considered together as depots for personnel rather than for aircraft.

Edited 26 December , 2023 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

Clearly there is ample evidence from personal records (ADM 188) showing that substantial numbers of new entry RNAS ACII’s being posted to T&W (from late 1917 through to the end of March 1918). And there are several IWM oral history recordings of men who vividly recount their recruitment into the RNAS and the initial training they received at T&W.

I’d also suggest that it would have been absurd to have such a senior officer as (Rtd.) Rear Adm. Hutchinson to be put in charge of a mere aircraft storage depot.

Additionally, knowing the local geography, I can’t imagine a less suitable site for aircraft storage, but since the army had previously been using the site as a transit camp (with wooden huts and other facilities already constructed), it would have been a fairly easy matter for the RNAS to re-purpose it in 1917.

For all the above reasons, I’m quite satisfied that (similar to Crystal Palace) - Tregantle and Withnoe was being used as a personnel depot for RNAS recruits basic training (and not an aircraft storage depot) - something that only became evident to me since delving deeper into this topic after reading the original post.

MB