ww1 brirish wound badge

[MarkP]

Hi guys, don't know if someone can help with this, I've a british ww1 metal brass wound badge but have seen for sale a cloth wound stripe with russian gold braid . Did they actually have cloth ones or were they the metal version?

Also, I've recently bought an original ww1 1914 pattern belt and looking for a 1914 pattern water bottle carrier, the original one with 4 studs on the back. All 1914 pattern equipment seems as rare as hen's teeth so wondered if anyone as any suggestions on where to find one?

I've seen one on a particular website but for £600! Far to rich for me!

Thanks

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, MarkP said:

Hi guys, don't know if someone can help with this, I've a british ww1 metal brass wound badge but have seen for sale a cloth wound stripe with russian gold braid . Did they actually have cloth ones or were they the metal version?

Also, I've recently bought an original ww1 1914 pattern belt and looking for a 1914 pattern water bottle carrier, the original one with 4 studs on the back. All 1914 pattern equipment seems as rare as hen's teeth so wondered if anyone as any suggestions on where to find one?

I've seen one on a particular website but for £600! Far to rich for me!

Thanks

Apparently the cloth version was issued on rolls of cloth to be cut off as required, by specified regulation and through clothing stores via supply demands submitted by unit quartermasters.  Commercial manufacturers in places like Birmingham, that were already selling skill-at-arms and trade badges to soldiers, soon cottoned on that they could sell a metal version of the wound stripe too.  They were very popular, as they could more easily be transferred between jackets.  I’ve never seen any official sanction of the metal badge in administrative orders, or circulars, but I imagine that officialdom would have had to approve them at some point.  The back plates are stamped with a ‘provisional patent’ No 4.

NB.  Note the private purchase ‘best’ uniform of the KRRC sergeant below, it has been beautifully tailored from a fine quality cloth and would have been expensive.  I think he is probably in a specialist role on the battalion HQ staff.  The mitred cuffs, scalloped pocket flaps, brown dogskin gloves and black cane with white metal top are all signs of status.

 

 

Edited 22 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

@FROGSMILE -- wish we knew the name of the last soldier with five wound stripes -- I would have liked to try and research him -- I'm sure he would have had an interesting story.

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/12/2023 at 11:50, Allan1892 said:

@FROGSMILE -- wish we knew the name of the last soldier with five wound stripes -- I would have liked to try and research him -- I'm sure he would have had an interesting story.

Yes he reappears elsewhere in the forum as an example of wound stripes. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/161850-why-wear-wound-stripes/

 I’m afraid it doesn’t seem to be known who he was, but other soldiers must have either viewed him as a lucky charm from the perspective of survival, or someone to avoid from the perspective of being hit…

Here’s another, more modestly decorated chap with a cloth wound stripe.  He has very unusual GS buttons with rims, a type that I’ve never seen before.

 

Edited 27 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

4 hours ago, MarkP said:

...Also, I've recently bought an original ww1 1914 pattern belt and looking for a 1914 pattern water bottle carrier, the original one with 4 studs on the back. All 1914 pattern equipment seems as rare as hen's teeth so wondered if anyone as any suggestions on where to find one?

I've seen one on a particular website but for £600! Far to rich for me!...

Currently one on Ebay - condition is rather rough for the price, but still considerably cheaper than £600:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166468854030?hash=item26c251210e:g:mwMAAOSwaFllZ6Ob&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwO9WIHhr0%2BhxBgQliGNR56v5vnJto2VQYtb8lTem80j0ODsaqh3Fp%2BMhiwt3p4kvPuEsdeqVLVrS3u2GpLyqLzyecqvOdNbPFLXOdweUWikJmfez5tOcoAC1h6OYoEwbGlv9WUiJnMKPLSXqPBTeXl0kfsZzYwZyB%2BmiIMAhSh1dgamxWgkBrLONBlsRrBXhhhb%2BgfPR0uXjTEqNxRA0kCyYctB7HIE44IGlwHEsST7x%2FG955LDSfN%2FtnvVE8rPz3A%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-jOnJuSYw

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

...Here’s another, more modestly decorated chap with a cloth wound stripe.  He has very unusual GS buttons with rims, a type that I’ve never seen before...

Those are the pressed horn version of the GS button, more commonly associated with units like the VTC but as illustrated they do occasionally crop up in other places. I have a few in the collection somewhere...

Edit - couldn't find mine, but a picture previously posted on the GWF showing the type top left:

Edited 22 December , 2023 by Andrew Upton

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Currently one on Ebay - condition is rather rough for the price, but still considerably cheaper than £600:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166468854030?hash=item26c251210e:g:mwMAAOSwaFllZ6Ob&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwO9WIHhr0%2BhxBgQliGNR56v5vnJto2VQYtb8lTem80j0ODsaqh3Fp%2BMhiwt3p4kvPuEsdeqVLVrS3u2GpLyqLzyecqvOdNbPFLXOdweUWikJmfez5tOcoAC1h6OYoEwbGlv9WUiJnMKPLSXqPBTeXl0kfsZzYwZyB%2BmiIMAhSh1dgamxWgkBrLONBlsRrBXhhhb%2BgfPR0uXjTEqNxRA0kCyYctB7HIE44IGlwHEsST7x%2FG955LDSfN%2FtnvVE8rPz3A%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-jOnJuSYw

 

Those are the pressed horn version of the GS button, more commonly associated with units like the VTC but as illustrated they do occasionally crop up in other places. I have a few in the collection somewhere...

Edit - couldn't find mine, but a picture previously posted on the GWF showing the type top left:

Thank you Andrew, I see it now.  Kicking myself, as I am familiar with that photo.  It puzzled me that in the photo they looked dark, almost like black bone, but I guess it’s the effect of orthochromatic film again.

Edited 22 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

7 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

@FROGSMILE -- wish we knew the name of the last soldier with five wound stripes -- I would have liked to try and research him -- I'm sure he would have had an interesting story.

...... I've never been convinced by this photo Allan1892.  Have a closer look at the way the multiple Wounded Stripes "hang" on his tunic sleeve.  They don't - they appear to float and sit proud to me. 

Edited 22 December , 2023 by TullochArd

[Muerrisch]

NB.  Note the private purchase ‘best’ uniform of the KRRC sergeant below, it has been beautifully tailored from a fine quality cloth and would have been expensive.  I think he is probably in a specialist role on the battalion HQ staff.  The mitred cuffs, scalloped pocket flaps, brown dogskin gloves and black cane with white metal top are all signs of status.

 

One of the two Lewis Gun sergeant  instructors of the battalion allowed in the last year or so of the war ........ badge unlikely to be MG as photo is post July 1916 and very unlikely to be Hotchkiss [HG]  instructor. Thus "on the staff" without formal staff sergeant status. Ref SS143. 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/12/2023 at 18:59, TullochArd said:

...... I've never been convinced by this photo Allan1892.  Have a closer look at the way the multiple Wounded Stripes "hang" on his tunic sleeve.  They don't - they appear to float and sit proud to me. 

They sit proud because they are.  They’re the metal type secured through holes by a cotter pin, and may, or may not have back plates.  They look exactly how I would expect metal badges to look.  Two of them have even tipped slightly so that they’re viewed obliquely, side on, in such a way you cannot see the double strand of their design.  To make them easier to transfer old soldiers would often have a patch sewn on to the cuff through which the badge could be secured without piercing the body of the sleeve. 

Edited 8 January by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

NB.  Note the private purchase ‘best’ uniform of the KRRC sergeant below, it has been beautifully tailored from a fine quality cloth and would have been expensive.  I think he is probably in a specialist role on the battalion HQ staff.  The mitred cuffs, scalloped pocket flaps, brown dogskin gloves and black cane with white metal top are all signs of status.

 

One of the two Lewis Gun sergeant  instructors of the battalion allowed in the last year or so of the war ........ badge unlikely to be MG as photo is post July 1916 and very unlikely to be Hotchkiss [HG]  instructor. Thus "on the staff" without formal staff sergeant status. Ref SS143. 1918.

That would certainly fit with his visible badge, which is LG in wreath so your hypothesis seems quite likely.

 

 

Edited 22 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

They sit proud because they are.  They’re the metal type secured through holes by a cotter pin, and may, or may not have back plates.  

 

We'll have to call Christmas Truce on this one Frogsmile and agree to disagree. The rigid brass stripes secured to the jacket would knock the creases out regardless of the backing plates being present or not. There's photographic mischief here.

Edited 22 December , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, TullochArd said:

We'll have to call Christmas Truce on this one Frogsmile and agree to disagree. The rigid brass stripes secured to the jacket would knock the creases out regardless of the backing plates being present or not. There's photographic mischief here.

The stripes are only secured at each end so cloth can move beneath, especially if without backplates which is likely given the number of stripes.  Metal badges commonly float like that, hence the distinctive contrast with all those cloth version photos I’ve posted.  A Christmas truce is fine.

Edited 23 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The stripes are only secured at each end so cloth can move beneath, especially if without backplates which is likely given the number of stripes.  Metal badges commonly float like that, hence the distinctive contrast with all those cloth version photos I’ve posted.  A Christmas truce is fine.

I have no doubts about them either. As a holder of the 1914 Star he was out there from the start and had seen enough service to earn them.          Pete.

[Muerrisch]

Put me down as a dissenter. Never mind the badges, magnify the cuff area to the left of left badge ........... blurred and featureless, no edge discernible. . Also the left badge looks very odd, only single line and no suggestion of the little ridge pattern. Looks like an amateurish photo-shop job.

Additionally, the ribbon might well have been a 1914-15 star , thus substantially reducing length of service .

Five is no big deal, we know of an eight, do we not?  Eight minimum. Lieutenant-General Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, VC, KBE, CB, CMG, DSO

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Put me down as a dissenter. Never mind the badges, magnify the cuff area to the left of left badge ........... blurred and featureless, no edge discernible. . Also the left badge looks very odd, only single line and no suggestion of the little ridge pattern. Looks like an amateurish photo-shop job.

Additionally, the ribbon might well have been a 1914-15 star , thus substantially reducing length of service .

Five is no big deal, we know of an eight, do we not?  Eight minimum. Lieutenant-General Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, VC, KBE, CB, CMG, DSO

The “single line” badges (x2) are merely where they have tipped slightly in their holes to be viewed obliquely, edge on.  A common happenstance when no backplates are fitted - as would be likely with so many stripes.  The single back plate worked well with one stripe and the double had its own backplate too, but more than that would be difficult if the correct (laid down) gap between each stripe (x5) was to be achieved. 

Edited 23 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

32 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Put me down as a dissenter. Never mind the badges, magnify the cuff area to the left of left badge ........... blurred and featureless, no edge discernible. . Also the left badge looks very odd, only single line and no suggestion of the little ridge pattern. Looks like an amateurish photo-shop job.

Additionally, the ribbon might well have been a 1914-15 star , thus substantially reducing length of service .

Five is no big deal, we know of an eight, do we not?  Eight minimum. Lieutenant-General Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, VC, KBE, CB, CMG, DSO

The 1914-15 Star ribbon would date the photo to post-December 1918. 1914 Star or 1914-15 Star, both cover a lot of ground and service. As for the image being photo-shopped I say "Bah, Humbug!!" .      Pete.

[Muerrisch]

Happily, my opinion is as valuable as yours.

I have sewn enough doubt on this forum to alert others to the possibility of faking, and they can make up their own minds.

Beyond that, I rest my case, happy that I am not in a minority of one.

 

[CorporalPunishment]

On 22/12/2023 at 11:55, FROGSMILE said:

Yes he reappears elsewhere in the forum as an example of wound stripes. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/161850-why-wear-wound-stripes/

 I’m afraid it doesn’t seem to be known who he was, but other soldiers must have either viewed him as a lucky charm from the perspective of survival, or someone to avoid from the perspective of being hit…

Here’s another, more modestly decorated chap with a cloth wound stripe.  He has very unusual GS buttons with rims, a type that I’ve never seen before.

It seems that the parent number eventually awarded was 115396, I wonder who registered it.

 

In the sombre looking group photo I like the way the dog's presence brightens it up a bit.       Pete.

[CorporalPunishment]

16 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Happily, my opinion is as valuable as yours.

I have sewn enough doubt on this forum to alert others to the possibility of faking, and they can make up their own minds.

Beyond that, I rest my case, happy that I am not in a minority of one.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Happily, my opinion is as valuable as yours.

I have sewn enough doubt on this forum to alert others to the possibility of faking, and they can make up their own minds.

Beyond that, I rest my case, happy that I am not in a minority of one.

 

I would hope that all our opinions are valuable on this forum.        Pete.

[MarkP]

Thanks guys. Info and photos really help. Up to now I haven't seen any photos or read anything on the cloth wound stripe hence the question about originality. 

Also thanks for the link on the water bottle carrier Andrew. Have had a look at that and its a pity a lot of the surface leather has gone. But still worth considering due to the rarity of 1914 pattern equipment. Maybe he'll come down on the price!??

[58 Div Mule]

On 23/12/2023 at 14:15, Muerrisch said:

Looks like an amateurish photo-shop job.

Agreed.

58 DM.

[Muerrisch]

3 hours ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Agreed.

58 DM.

Thank you.

I have done a lot of photoshop.

Would be ashamed of that effort .... its the left that is amateurish.

Still, who am I to disagree with received opinion?

[4thGordons]

On 22/12/2023 at 05:50, Allan1892 said:

@FROGSMILE -- wish we knew the name of the last soldier with five wound stripes -- I would have liked to try and research him -- I'm sure he would have had an interesting story.

I own the original of this image - unfortunately it is blank on the reverse so no clues.

Chris

On 22/12/2023 at 15:09, TullochArd said:

We'll have to call Christmas Truce on this one Frogsmile and agree to disagree. The rigid brass stripes secured to the jacket would knock the creases out regardless of the backing plates being present or not. There's photographic mischief here.

see above -- I own this image and have posted it previously.

It may take me a minute to dig it out I am not sure where it is but I promise that it has not been messed with electronically - it MAY have been messed with in the original but the period card I own is as shown

Chris

 

Edited 26 December , 2023 by 4thGordons

[4thGordons]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you.

I have done a lot of photoshop.

Would be ashamed of that effort .... its the left that is amateurish.

Still, who am I to disagree with received opinion?

So I am not quite sure how best to demonstrate this but here is me holding the image in front of this thread a few seconds ago

and a photograph of the photograph

I will rescan it for you including the reverse 

I can promise you that if there is photo jiggerypokery it was not done by me and not done in photoshop.

Chris

[4thGordons]

Scan at 300 dpi