Lacing of Boots

[green_acorn]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

... I recall the first high boots that you used which I saw during an exchange visit by 1 RAR back in the early 1970s, while we were still wearing short boots and puttees.

 ...

Regards,

FS

Our old "Boots, General Purpose", the basic design survived from the mid 1960's, with only change of manufacturers and colour (to a baby #2*@*^ brown, though officially khaki) until the introction of the new boots in 1999. https://cartalana.com/002-04.php

[Chasemuseum]

10 hours ago, green_acorn said:

the foot sizing data was stolen a year or so late

who stole the data ? any idea. 

 

I would have thought that the data would have had racial/ethnic/cultural facets making it of little value outside of Australia.

[green_acorn]

Chasemuseum,

I honestly don't know who would have stolen the data.  It was something mentioned a few years after the data collection.  Possibly just an excuse to cover the delay in organising funding for new boots.  The Australian Army during the time was known for having continual budget cuts for uniforms.

 

Chris

[Fromelles]

On 22/12/2023 at 21:37, FROGSMILE said:

‘Less strain’ doesn’t really make sense, although I don’t doubt that was said Dan.  Pulling upward on crossed laces very obviously draws the grommeted lace holes diagonally putting greater strain on them.  The ladder method pulls horizontally for each individual strand, one hole directly opposite to the other.

Like I said, this is what I was told at the time, though it could have just been their opinion. That being said, I do recall a lot of the fallas would pull the eyelets on their black (and later brown/green) GPs, but not something I saw happen with the new boots. It's impossible to say if it was the method of lacing or manufacture that was to blame, but one thing I do know is the knotted lace method was a damn sight quicker to lace up.

Dan

 

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, Fromelles said:

one thing I do know is the knotted lace method was a damn sight quicker to lace up.

Yes that’s what I recall most clearly too.  It made donning boots so much quicker too didn’t it. 

[Fromelles]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that’s what I recall most clearly too.  It made donning boots so much quicker too didn’t it. 

I can remember being taught how to platt the single lace, instead of winding it around the boot, as it was quicker to undo.

Dan

[green_acorn]

21 minutes ago, Fromelles said:

That being said, I do recall a lot of the fallas would pull the eyelets on their black (and later brown/green) GPs, but not something I saw happen with the new boots. It's impossible to say if it was the method of lacing or manufacture that was to blame, but one thing I do know is the knotted lace method was a damn sight quicker to lace up.

Dan

 

Dan,

The eyelets/grommets on the GP boot were aluminium, and yes as they wore away in the direction of most strain (horizontally) the best thing to do was pull the eyelet out, but that didn't help the leather slowly tearing through it. The best thing to do would have been to take them to a bootmaker and put in better eyelets.

 

Cheers,

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Only ex infantrymen, or those who’ve worked with them could have this length a conversation about lacing boots 😂👍

[green_acorn]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Only ex infantrymen, or those who’ve worked with them could have this length a conversation about lacing boots 😂👍

    Yep!  My first GP's I had been issued in 76, I hated getting wet feet and having soggy boots.  In '77 I found some excellent leather treatment, my first PL SGT in my battalion could not believe how soft my bush/barrack work boots were, they had become as soft as moccasins.  I wore them until there was no tread left, not good on hills, rocks or whilst rapelling from the skids of the old Iroquis helicopter in '78.  Great for drill practice and Battle PT though.  I had brand new boots the day after our Coy Medic slipped with old boots and knocked himself out on the skids of a then RAAF Iroquis whilst at 100ft in April 78.

Edited 24 January by green_acorn

[fellop]

During my time serving ‘Er Majesty I wore, in order, Boots Ammunition with 37 Patt Anklets [don’t call them Gaiters the Clergy wear Gaiters]. Followed by Boots DMS and Puttees ending with Boots Combat High. During the wearing of all versions of boot from Private to WO1 [RSM] I laced my boots as perfectly described by TullochArd.

The post from PhilB reminds me of sometime around 1964 when I was on the last night of my seven days defaulters and congratulating myself that after the 2200hrs Defaulters Parade at the Guardroom, my life would return to what passed for normal. Sadly my leather laces were, it seems, twisted and I was to return the next night to show laces untwisted.

Regards

Peter.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, fellop said:

During my time serving ‘Er Majesty I wore, in order, Boots Ammunition with 37 Patt Anklets [don’t call them Gaiters the Clergy wear Gaiters]. Followed by Boots DMS and Puttees ending with Boots Combat High. During the wearing of all versions of boot from Private to WO1 [RSM] I laced my boots as perfectly described by TullochArd.

The post from PhilB reminds me of sometime around 1964 when I was on the last night of my seven days defaulters and congratulating myself that after the 2200hrs Defaulters Parade at the Guardroom, my life would return to what passed for normal. Sadly my leather laces were, it seems, twisted and I was to return the next night to show laces untwisted.

Regards

Peter.

Those were the days Peter! 🤔
I don’t know about you, but on reflection I seem to have wasted too many hours of life with blanco, a bristle shaving brush to even the layers out, and a match stick wrapped in 4x2 flannelette to clean dried brasso off the buckles on belt and anklets.  All very serious at the time.  But now….

Edited 24 January by FROGSMILE

[fellop]

25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Those were the days Peter! 🤔
I don’t know about you, but on reflection I seem to have wasted too many hours of life with blanco, a bristle shaving brush to even the layers out, and a match stick wrapped in 4x2 flannelette to clean dried brasso off the buckles on belt and anklets.  All very serious at the time.  But now….

Though I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch last Monday I remember vividly almost the first words of wisdom the Recruit Pln Sgt gave to us soon to be ex civilians some 61 years ago.

There are two types of soldier, Those who can Blanco, Bull Boots and Light an HPP Lamp and then there are those who can’t. If any of you expect to have a glimmer of hope for a successful military career and to climb the ladder of promotion perhaps even to the rank of Cpl then you better make sure you are in group one.

Happy days

[Chasemuseum]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Only ex infantrymen, ..... could have this length a conversation about lacing boots 😂👍

I expect everyone engaged in this thread spent years as an infantry soldier. It was critically important to the life style and duty. It also ties into the Great War and earlier conflicts.

One of the observations of Sir John Moore's army when it returned to the UK after Corunna was that the boots had fallen to pieces and that the failure of footwear was one of the important factors limiting the effectiveness of an army in the field. 

Our recollections from training in the 60s and 70s, is part of being trained by the WW2 service generation and captures this aspect of history. Unfortunately, the link with how the WW2 experience evolved from the WW1 experience is not well documented. For the British Army the late c19 saw armies marching long distances, often in relatively dry climates, NW India, Sudan, South Africa etc. The Western Front was a very different footwear experience, with "trench foot" from cold wet feet being an important source of non-weapon casualties.  

As an aside, between the wars, the pathology museum at the University of Sydney used to have a collection of feet amputated because of trench foot. The still have a very large path museum, but when I had to do a review of it about 20 years ago, the trench foot specimens had been disposed of as no longer relevant to teaching modern medicine.  

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, fellop said:

Though I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch last Monday I remember vividly almost the first words of wisdom the Recruit Pln Sgt gave to us soon to be ex civilians some 61 years ago.

There are two types of soldier, Those who can Blanco, Bull Boots and Light an HPP Lamp and then there are those who can’t. If any of you expect to have a glimmer of hope for a successful military career and to climb the ladder of promotion perhaps even to the rank of Cpl then you better make sure you are in group one.

Happy days

Indeed.  Although at age 15 and 3-months at the time, I did whatever I was told with the express intent of avoiding upsetting any of the scary men, and older boys, with stripes on their arms.  It was very hard, next to impossible it seemed, to stay out of any trouble at all, so it all just became a matter of degrees.  A good day was one where you’d felt less wrath than other days…

Edited 24 January by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that’s what I recall most clearly too.  It made donning boots so much quicker too didn’t it. 

That's something that seems to have largely missed off the conversation thus far. I was taught that from the very beginning. Lace the boots up at the start and then tighten up one horizontal lace at a time from the bottom. Not only is it quicker but it fits better too.

...and yes, not a subject that can be talked out knowledgably by academics

Edited 24 January by 6RRF

[Muerrisch]

QUOTE  The Western Front was a very different footwear experience, with "trench foot" from cold wet feet being an important source of non-weapon casualties.  

'Yes but', as the saying goes.

In the trenches it became clear to the more observant COs and RMOs that the incidence of trench foot in a unit [all other matters being similar] was governed by discipline and the diligence of the junior officers and SNCOs.  Foot care, hygiene, and dry socks were said to be a matter of unit morale. Frequent reliefs, frequent inspections and a lot of hard graft by the QM's team were the magic formula. Slack and improvident leadership became reflected in casualty returns. 'Look after the horses first, then your men, then, and only then, yourself.'

Not, you understand, that I was there at the time.

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

That's something that seems to have largely missed off the conversation thus far. I was taught that from the very beginning. Lace the boots up at the start and then tighten up one horizontal lace at a time from the bottom. Not only is it quicker but it fits better too.

...and yes, not a subject that can be talked out knowledgably by academics

Yes I recall that technique too. 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

QUOTE  The Western Front was a very different footwear experience, with "trench foot" from cold wet feet being an important source of non-weapon casualties.  

'Yes but', as the saying goes.

In the trenches it became clear to the more observant COs and RMOs that the incidence of trench foot in a unit [all other matters being similar] was governed by discipline and the diligence of the junior officers and SNCOs.  Foot care, hygiene, and dry socks were said to be a matter of unit morale. Frequent reliefs, frequent inspections and a lot of hard graft by the QM's team were the magic formula. Slack and improvident leadership became reflected in casualty returns. 'Look after the horses first, then your men, then, and only then, yourself.'

Not, you understand, that I was there at the time.

I recall that Captain JC Dunn RMO 2 RWF said something of the like in his account ‘The War the Infantry Knew’.  Is that where the quote is from? 

[Muerrisch]

Yes, good spot, almost certainly Dunn, but I was too idle to climb up stairs.

However, his was not the only such opinion I have hoovered up.

I believe the old regular battalions had good casue to be critical of some of the New Army men, and some of the auxilliaries, but 'good practice' has self-evident benefits and the citizen army evolved into some sort of image of its exemplars.

Edited 24 January by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Yes, good spot, almost certainly Dunn, but I was too idle to climb up stairs.

However, his was not the only such opinion I have hoovered up.

I believe the old regular battalions had good casue to be critical of some of the New Army men, and some of the auxilliaries, but 'good practice' has self-evident benefits and the citizen army evolved into some sort of image of its exemplars.

Yes I think that you’ve summarised the different elements of the subject very well.