Prussian Breast Star? von Oertzen, again

[dutchbarge]

Hello,  Here I am again trying to sort out my knowledge of Oberleutnant Günther von Oertzen..........from 19 Nov.1909 he served in I.R. 162, from 14 Nov. 1916 in R.I.R.31......I've been able to gather a bit more information about his service history and I am attempting find out what decorations were worn in the loops on his tunic breast as shown in the attached photos (I acquired the tunic sans decorations).  I'm pretty sure the upper most vertical loops were meant for a 2 place ribbon bar (for wear in the field) and a 2 place medal bar (worn out of the field).  I would think one of these was the 2.EK, but I have no idea what the 2nd one would be.  Below these, I'm pretty sure that the uppermost set of horizontal loops would be for an 1.EK and the set below that for a wound badge....on 25 Aug 1914 von Oertzen was wounded in the Market Square in Louvain, by Belgian franc tirailleurs, part of the German rationale to torch the city and he was KIA 4 October 1918, several months after the first issue of the wound badge in march 1918....so he would definitely have had at least a black wound badge, although it is quite possible that he had been wounded three times (or more....he was definitely a 'fire-eater'), so whether the badge was black or silver (or even gold) I don't know.  The bottom loops are configured in a manner I have never before seen.  There are two vertical finished holes and two horizontal loops.  About as far as my imagination takes me is that this was meant to attach a 'breast star', the two holes for the star's pin, and the vertical loops to secure the star's points from flapping about.....again, I have no idea what 'breast star' (or even if it is for a 'breast star').  Attached is also a foto of a I.R.162 NCO with a cross worn in that position....what this cross is, or whether von Oertzen would have worn one is beyond me.  As he was commissioned in 1909 it is possible that he may have earned decorations prior to WW1.  The tunic is date 22 June 1914.  Any help would be most appreciated.  Cheers, Bill

Edited 19 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[cabbell2207]

That's a tough one to figure our. Do you know if he did any service in the far east? Japanese breast stars use a pin and two prong attachment.

[dutchbarge]

From what reading I've done, by 1905 Germany's colonies had settled down under an 'enlightened' administration which believed that the colonials should be led rather than coerced.  By the time von Oertzen was commissioned in 1909 the colonies were very productive and peaceful (and their administration was envied by other European imperialist powers).  If von Oertzen saw action before 1914 I don't know where it might have been.  I'm wondering if there was a breast badge for 'adjutant' as he was adjutant of R.I.R. 31.  Or perhaps it was an academic achievement award?  Or a qualification badge?  Marksmanship/shooting award/qualification badge (although I don't think officer wore these badges?) Cheers, Bill  

Edited 20 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[AOK4]

5 hours ago, cabbell2207 said:

That's a tough one to figure our. Do you know if he did any service in the far east? Japanese breast stars use a pin and two prong attachment.

Japan was an allied country in 1914-1918... So definitely no.

[AOK4]

He would probably have received the Lübeck Henaseatic Cross, Iron Cross 2nd Class, Iron Cross 1st Class and by the autumn of 1918 a black wound badge (if he was indeed wounded in 1914, which is not mentioned in the Verlustliste). He may have had the Verdienstkreuz 2. Klasse and 1. Klasse from Mecklenburg-Schwerin as well since he was from that state (similar to the man in your attached picture).

No extra info from the Helden-Gedenkmappe des deutschen Adels (attachment).

Jan

[dutchbarge]

54 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

by the autumn of 1918 a black wound badge (if he was indeed wounded in 1914, which is not mentioned in the Verlustliste)

Jan

 

Thank you, Jan, for the information........you are always here with the information!

Regarding von Oertzen being wounded, the quote below is from a 3 page handwritten dossier of von Oertzen which came with the tunic......as yet I have not be able to document the source of the quote......although I don't think he was a 1st Lieutenant until 18 September 1915............Do you have any thoughts on what badge might have been worn in the bottom position?  Am I correct in remembering that the wound badge was awarded for being KIA?  Cheers, Bill

“Now I also learned that the first echelon of the General Command, after its arrival in the City (25 Aug 1914) where it was being held in readiness on the Market Square, had been suddenly attacked with a murderous fire from the houses surrounding the Market Square.  Although the officers and men answered the fire, Captain von Harnier, Captain von Esmarck, Captain von Raven, 1^st Lieutenant von Ortzen, Leutnant Risler and other officers and men were wounded or killed.” General von Boehn’s statement to the Court of the Governor General, Brussels, during the investigation as to any German responsibility for the burning of Louvain, 27 Sept 1914.

 

Edited 20 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[dutchbarge]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

Japan was an allied country in 1914-1918... So definitely no.

I wondered if von Oertzen might have been awarded a badge for pre-war service in one of Germany's colonies in China, the Pacific Ocean or Africa.  Which badge might have occupied the bottom set of loops>

[AOK4]

9 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

I wondered if von Oertzen might have been awarded a badge for pre-war service in one of Germany's colonies in China, the Pacific Ocean or Africa.  Which badge might have occupied the bottom set of loops>

You should check whether any medals are listed next to his name in the 1914 Rangliste.

Perhaps a Johanniter Cross or something may also be an option (although these aren't listed anywhere)?

Edit: if he was a Johanniter, he would normally have been listed here since he was KIA: https://www.johanniter.de/johanniterorden/ueber-den-johanniterorden/geschichte/sonnenburg/beschriftung-der-wappenfelder/

Jan

Edited 20 December , 2023 by AOK4

[Glenn J]

Bill,

I have in my notes that Oberleutnant von Oertzen was the recipient of the Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross 1st class (as shown in your picture of the NCO). Clearly the uppermost set of loops would be for the Iron Cross 1st class. The Johanniter Order, incidentally was not awarded as a rule to regular officers below the rank of Hauptmann/Rittmeister and I can find no indication that he was a recipient.  Jan is correct in his assertion regarding the Lübeck Henaseatic Cross; he was awarded that decoration on 6 November 1915.

Regards

Glenn

 

[AOK4]

16 minutes ago, Glenn J said:

Bill,

I have in my notes that Oberleutnant von Oertzen was the recipient of the Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross 1st class (as shown in your picture of the NCO). Clearly the uppermost set of loops would be for the Iron Cross 1st class. The Johanniter Order, incidentally was not awarded as a rule to regular officers below the rank of Hauptmann/Rittmeister and I can find no indication that he was a recipient.  Jan is correct in his assertion regarding the Lübeck Henaseatic Cross; he was awarded that decoration on 6 November 1915.

Regards

Glenn

 

Thanks for confirming my assumptions.

I guess the bottom loops should be for the wound badge then.

Jan

[Andrew Upton]

15 hours ago, dutchbarge said:

Hello,  Here I am again trying to sort out my knowledge of Oberleutnant Günther von Oertzen..........from 19 Nov.1909 he served in I.R. 162, from 14 Nov. 1916 in R.I.R.31......I've been able to gather a bit more information about his service history and I am attempting find out what decorations were worn in the loops on his tunic breast as shown in the attached photos (I acquired the tunic sans decorations)...

I can't help on the medal loop conundrum, but I for one would certainly be interested to see some more general shots of the tunic if you have the opportunity.

[dutchbarge]

Thank you Jan, Glen, Cabbell and Andrew......This information is very exciting......I'm always amazed at how the members always have the answers to my questions.  Thank all of you!  Yes, Andrew, pictures will be coming eventually.

I'm now looking to buy a Mecklenburg-Schwerin Militarverdienstkreuz 1.Klasse 1941.......they are very expensive!  All the ones I have found are a bit 'vaulted'.........would a 'vaulted' example be appropriate for von Oertzen's tunic? Cheers, Bill

Edited 20 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[dutchbarge]

18 hours ago, Glenn J said:

Bill,

I have in my notes that Oberleutnant von Oertzen was the recipient of the Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross 1st class (as shown in your picture of the NCO). Clearly the uppermost set of loops would be for the Iron Cross 1st class. The Johanniter Order, incidentally was not awarded as a rule to regular officers below the rank of Hauptmann/Rittmeister and I can find no indication that he was a recipient.  Jan is correct in his assertion regarding the Lübeck Henaseatic Cross; he was awarded that decoration on 6 November 1915.

Regards

Glenn

 

Hello Glen,

Thank you for this information.  Aside from the Hanseatic Cross, do you have any information regarding when von Oertzen was awarded his EK 1 & 2, his Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 1st or his wound badge?  Any information would be very much appreciated.  Any information at all.  Cheers, Bill

Edited 21 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[AOK4]

3 hours ago, dutchbarge said:

Hello Glen,

Thank you for this information.  Aside from the Hanseatic Cross, do you have any information regarding when von Oertzen was awarded his EK 1 & 2, his Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 1st or his wound badge?  Any information would be very much appreciated.  Any information at all.  Cheers, Bill

He has received a Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 2nd Class as well (no 1st class without 2nd class).

[dutchbarge]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

He has received a Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 2nd Class as well (no 1st class without 2nd class).

Hello Jan,  On a ribbon bar, what would the order of precedence of the 2.EK, Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 2nd Class and the Hanseatenkreuz Lübeck 1914?  Would von Oertzen's 'home' regiment being Lübeck have any bearing?

Cheers, Bill

 

[Glenn J]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

He has received a Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 2nd Class as well (no 1st class without 2nd class).

Indeed,

MMV2 on 22 May 1915

MMV1 on 24 March 1917

There are no centralised award rolls (WW1 and WW2) for the Iron Cross and consequently short of finding an award date in a specific service record, it is problematical determining an exact date for an award. I would assume his 2nd class was a fairly early war award, late 1914, early 1915.

Regards

Glenn

 

[AOK4]

47 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

Hello Jan,  On a ribbon bar, what would the order of precedence of the 2.EK, Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 2nd Class and the Hanseatenkreuz Lübeck 1914?  Would von Oertzen's 'home' regiment being Lübeck have any bearing?

Cheers, Bill

 

There is an official order of precedence indeed, but I don't know that immediately. I'll see whether I can find something somewhere.

Although the EK2 should be the first on most bars, one does see occasionally "local" awards being put before the Prussian EK2.

[dutchbarge]

On 19/12/2023 at 22:37, dutchbarge said:

 

“Now I also learned that the first echelon of the General Command, after its arrival in the City (25 Aug 1914) where it was being held in readiness on the Market Square, had been suddenly attacked with a murderous fire from the houses surrounding the Market Square.  Although the officers and men answered the fire, Captain von Harnier, Captain von Esmarck, Captain von Raven, 1^st Lieutenant von Ortzen, Leutnant Risler and other officers and men were wounded or killed.” General von Boehn’s statement to the Court of the Governor General, Brussels, during the investigation as to any German responsibility for the burning of Louvain, 27 Sept 1914.

 

I ran the names of the five officers mentioned in Boehm's statement (above) through online casualty lists (http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/covers_vl/vl_wk1_index_heer.html and https://des.genealogy.net/eingabe-verlustlisten/search/index) and none were listed as WIA/KIA 25-26 August 1914 (period of Louvain uprising/German reprisal).  Neither was I able to confirm that the units to which these five officers belonged were definitely in Louvain 25-26 August 1914.  Likewise I ran the names of all the von Oertzens in the 1914 Ranglist (3 oberleutnants, 18 leutnants) through online casualty lists and none were listed as WIA/KIA 25-26 August 1914, nor, with the exception of 'my' von Oertzen (I.R. 162), was I able to confirm that the units to which they belonged were definitely in Louvain at the time of the uprising.  God only knows how many other von Oertzens served in the Reserve or Landwehr and 'my' von Oertzen was a Leutnant at this time and not an oberleutnant (as von Oertzen was described in Boehm's statement) so it's a bit of a long shot that 'my' von Oertzen was the one mentioned in Boehm's statement.  A long shot but not entirely out of the question.   After spending way too much time on this, I am resigned to the fact that even if 'my' von Oertzen was not the von Oertzen mentioned in Boehm's statement (assuming Boehm was even accurate in this statement) I know that I.R. 162, 'my' von Oertzen's unit, was definitely in Louvain during the uprising/reprisals (as it is so recorded in, Histories of Two Hundred and Fifty One Divisions of the German Army Which Participated in the War (1914 - 1918), US War Office, 1920) so it is likely that he was there.  And here is where the question will likely remain.  Cheers, Bill

Edited 24 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[dutchbarge]

I believe I've figured out what originally occupied the odd pair vertical holes flanked by two loops (fotos below)..............see attached photo of EK1 with the vertical pin flanked by two hooks (I've found online fotos several EK1s thus set up).  He probably had the vertical holes and flanking loops done by his tailor when he was awarded the EK1 and later, after he won the Mecklenburg-Schwerin Cross, relocated his EK1 to newly added uppermost vertical loops and the M-S1 to newly added vertical looks below the EK1. Assuming he was awarded a wound badge it would have fit nicely into the vertical holes formerly occupied by his EK1.  OR, although it would have been contrary to the customary placement (and perhaps against regulations) he might have left his EK1 mounted in the two vertical holes flanked by the loops added his M-S1 and an as yet unidentified decoration above. Cheers, Bill

Edited 31 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[dutchbarge]

another foto

[dutchbarge]

von Oertzen's tunic is now complete with his decorations.....many thanks to the Forum members for their help..........

Edited Thursday at 00:48 by dutchbarge