British Arisaka bayonet assistance

[DisasterDog]

Hello gents!

Had the opportunity to acquire a British unit-marked Type 30 bayonet, so I jumped on it.  The bayonet is not in my possession as of yet (and due to the impending holiday, it may be a couple weeks), but Japanese arms are not in my wheelhouse.  Combined with my focus on WW2, I’m flying a bit blind. 
 

Stacked cannonballs & an unblued blade, the marking reads:

101  PB  165

The Broad Arrow (MkI) lists this as Pembroke, which, as best as I can come up with, was a Royal Navy “stone frigate” during WW1.  
 

I’m wondering if I am accurate in my interpretation, and if anyone can add any more context to this.  Im also wondering if anyone knows which model (or, Type) of Arisaka would have been in use there.  
 

Thank you all for your time!

[4thGordons]

The late TonyE discussed the use of them in his book on British Secondary Small arms -I'll have a look as he shows some markings.

Great pick up by the way!

I have acquired a few photos of them in service  but in these instances with army units as below

[DisasterDog]

Several different Google searches led me right back to GWF, so I know I’m in the right place! 
 

Thanks 4th!

[4thGordons]

 

A.O. Edwards, 2004. British Secondary Small Arms 1914-1919 Part 1 Arisaka Rifles and Carbines  Solo Publications.

 

[DisasterDog]

Doing more reading on it, the scabbard doesn’t have the “cone” at the screw, which points toward it being original to the bayonet.  Revisiting pictures from the seller, it appears to have a second set of unit markings on the reverse of the pommel (the button side), which may read:

85  PB  122

Other than photos of army units, I have thus far only found pictures of Royal Marines with Arisaka rifles.  I am feeling confident that this was taken in to Royal Navy service….  now to find evidence of them in use at Pembroke.
 

I will have to get some pics when it arrives!

Edited 17 December , 2023 by DisasterDog

[4thGordons]

Tony's book has a good number of naval pics in it

including this -- which may be of interest! (I believe the rifle is in the Imperial War Museum)

107 PB

[DisasterDog]

That’s almost a little too “on the nose”!  

 

But it’s good to know my future Arisaka isn’t tied up at the IWM!

[navydoc16]

On 15/12/2023 at 22:54, DisasterDog said:

Hello gents!

Had the opportunity to acquire a British unit-marked Type 30 bayonet, so I jumped on it.  The bayonet is not in my possession as of yet (and due to the impending holiday, it may be a couple weeks), but Japanese arms are not in my wheelhouse.  Combined with my focus on WW2, I’m flying a bit blind. 
 

Stacked cannonballs & an unblued blade, the marking reads:

101  PB  165

The Broad Arrow (MkI) lists this as Pembroke, which, as best as I can come up with, was a Royal Navy “stone frigate” during WW1.  
 

I’m wondering if I am accurate in my interpretation, and if anyone can add any more context to this.  Im also wondering if anyone knows which model (or, Type) of Arisaka would have been in use there.  
 

Thank you all for your time!

Please send photos when you get them, I would love to see. 

I think it is too obscure to be too risky, however keep in the back of your mind that an the original bayonet is worth far less than the one with the markings - simply a thought. 

There has been some funny business about from time to time.

 

Kind regards,
G 

[DisasterDog]

The bayonet arrived & looks to be in very good shape.  Unfortunately the blade has been sharpened & there is a bit of surface rust on the grip screws.  I am going to the range tomorrow (with a 1915 Lithgow & US M1917), so I will bring the bayonet & get some photos!

[4thGordons]

1 hour ago, DisasterDog said:

The bayonet arrived & looks to be in very good shape.  Unfortunately the blade has been sharpened & there is a bit of surface rust on the grip screws.  I am going to the range tomorrow (with a 1915 Lithgow & US M1917), so I will bring the bayonet & get some photos!

I just purchased 2 pics which I think are navy crew drilling onboard ship with Arisakas - I will post them when they get here (so long as I have correctly identified them from the blurry auction pics!

Chris

[trajan]

I would expect a 'N' for Navy mark on the bayonet, but perhaps not needed in this case as 'PB' marking

[DisasterDog]

[navydoc16]

Very interesting indeed, I would like to see some sort of British acceptance mark? 

not to put in too much conjecture but I really don’t like the placement of the stamps and the double stamping. But I don’t know enough or seen another one. 
 

if it was simply done by the ship and not the navy it might make sense, but unsure. 
 

Frog also looks very good for being as old as it is purporting to be 

 

Kind Regards,

g

2 hours ago, DisasterDog said:

 

[Chasemuseum]

The frog looks pretty good, even down to a Kokura arsenal stamp. 

[DisasterDog]

On 17/12/2023 at 17:02, 4thGordons said:

Tony's book has a good number of naval pics in it

including this -- which may be of interest! (I believe the rifle is in the Imperial War Museum)

107 PB

I have read this thread several times, but just realized it has the matching bayonet to the rifle in your photo (107 PB on the Left grip scale):

 

[4thGordons]

First of the pics arrived: not great quality unfortunately, however you can make out the Arisaka rifles (muzzle shape, clearing rod, straight bolt etc) being used by these (mostly young looking) naval personnel on the forecastle of a vessel.

The picture is censor approved for foreign release but undated.

Another couple should be en route.

Chris

[AndyBsk]

Nice bayonet, is there anything on pommel? serial number?

[4thGordons]

10 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Nice bayonet, is there anything on pommel? serial number?

[AndyBsk]

I mean the area of pommel where is the rifle slot, normally there is japan numbering of production.

Edited 3 January by AndyBsk

[DisasterDog]

3 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

I mean the area of pommel where is the rifle slot, normally there is japan numbering of production.

Yes, I realize I left that out!  
 

[AndyBsk]

Thanks its correspond with the WW1 period production, the maker should be Tokyo Koishikawa arsenal then.

[DisasterDog]

Thanks for all the replies!  
 

Based on the photos & previous information, looks like I need to find a Type 38 rifle rather than carbine.  
 

And so the hunt begins…

[Chasemuseum]

Both T30 and T38 Arisakas were provided to the UK, also both carbines and long rifles for the T38 (I cannot confirm that the T30 was provided as a carbine). The photo link below is Berkshire Bantams with T38 carbines. All of these rifles used the same T30 bayonet. At all times, the T38 long rifle was the most common.

 

Japan also produced a 1911 T44 cavalry carbine. I have never seen any photos or evidence that these were provided to their allies during WW1.

 

For naval use they produced a variant bayonet, the T35 (1902). These are very rare. The difference is minor and would not be visible in a typical wartime photo. I have never physically seen or handled one of these, only a photo in a reference book on Japanese bayonets. Would love to see one of these with British markings, but I do not expect this to happen.  

 

Also I don't know why I was calling the T38 a T97 in the previous post. The T97 was the sniper rifle version and was part of the new date year system, referring to 1937 in the western calendar.

Edited 5 January by Chasemuseum

[Chasemuseum]

Also here are a couple more wartime photos

 

[DisasterDog]

I base this off of this thread, where TonyE states the first 50,000 rifles were Type 38 & went to the RN.  
 

This is not to say the matching rifle couldn’t have been from the later shipment which included Type 30 rifles & Type 38 carbines.  
 

 

Hey @Chasemuseum, did you notice the thread you linked has the matching bayonet to the picture posted by @4thGordons in Post #6 of this thread!?!