Canal de L'Escaut vs Canal San Quentin?

[dutchbarge]

Hello, I'm trying to find the location of an action in which the 57th Division forced the positions of Reserve Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 31  October 1-2, 1918, and which the R.I.R. 31 counterattacked and reclaimed October 3, 1918.  Below is a description of the action from the war diary of the R.I.R. 31st (I apologize if my translation from German to English is less that exactly accurate) :  

3 October 1918:  The approximately 300 meter wide English bridgehead position at the canal bend poses a constant threat to the recaptured canal position.  Filled with new confidence by our previous attack's success, at 11 am, after a short, effective bombardment, the enemy position was stormed with cheers.  With exemplary attack spirit, the officers, NCOs, and men went forward together. After stubborn resistance, the enemy position was overwhelmed. The October 3^rd evening report of the 18th Reserve Division reads, “3. October, 11 AM.  The brave Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg and Hanseatic soldiers of R.I.R. 31 attacked under the eyes of their Brigade (R.I.B. 35) Commander, Colonel von Kaweczynski.  At the head of the attack was their dashing Battalion leader, Obertleutnant von Oertzen.  All of the enemy's bridgehead position was reclaimed tonight.  Despite the tough resistance our men pressed irresistibly into the bitter fight, man against man, in righteous anger at the shameful performance of the 57th English Division whose men, following the fighting of October 1^st and 2^nd,  shot all of our wounded. These English soldiers suffered heavy losses. Nevertheless, during our assault 3 wounded English officers and 64 wounded men were taken prisoner and 6 of their machine guns were captured.  A further number of enemy wounded, including 1 officer, were later recovered.  In the evening the 1^st and 2nd Battalions (R.I.R. 31), replaced by the 3^rd Battalion (R.)I.R. 86, retired to Cambrai.

4 October 1918: The Regiment is taken back to Avesnes-lez-Aubert and Avesnes le Sec in 2nd line as a Brigade and Division reserve. Major General Winiker once again personally expresses his appreciation to the Regiment. During the 2nd Battalion's retreat through Cambrai, the brave deputy battalion leader, Oberleutnant von Oertzen, who had also served as regimental adjutant, died.

I am wondering if the "300 meter wide English bridgehead position at the canal bend" is that portion of the Canal San Quentin to the southeast of Marcoing.  The Canal de l"Escaut (at least according to modern maps) comes from the north to end in Cambrai where it continues south as the Canal San Quentin.  I've read that circa late September 1918, The 5th Bn. Duke of Wellington's Regiment forced the crossings of the Canal de l'Escaut at Marcoing and established itself in the German defenses on the east bank. North of this point the 2nd Division and the 57th Division cleared the west bank of the canal as far north as La Folie Wood and captured Noyelles-sur-Escaut, Cantaing and Fontaine-Notre-Dame. Since it is the Canal San Quentin which runs through Marcoing (at least today) I am a bit confused.  

Can any of the members help pin down where the "300 meter wide English bridgehead position at the canal bend" is located?  

Cheers, Bill

Edited 13 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[Howard]

Have a look at the 250+ maps of the area on TrenchMapper. There is the Rivière Escaut, not marked as a canal although some stretches may have been canalised.

Modern maps will not be a good guide. Names change and quite of lot of water engineering has taken place since the Great War. Best to use the same source as those who wrote the reports at the time.

Howard

Edited 14 December , 2023 by Howard

[brianmorris547]

Bill

This map is from the October 1918 War Diary of 57 Div HQ GS and it shows the Canal de St Quentin and the bend in A 15 b. The WD records that 2/4 Loyal North Lancs captured five Germans on 01/10/1918. The papers show map references in A 8 and A 14.

I will read the Brigade and Bn WDs as I have an interest in 170 Infantry Brigade, which contained a lot of men from Bolton.

TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2967.

Brian

Edited 14 December , 2023 by brianmorris547
typo

[brianmorris547]

The War Diary of 170 Infantry Brigade of 57 Div does not seem to agree with the German account. There is no mention of a bridgehead and no mention of a German Counter Attack on 03/10/1918. The WD of 1/5 Loyal North Lancs mentions German prisoners captured and the WD of 2/5 Kings Own (Royal Lancaster) for October 1918 is missing. 171 Infantry Brigade were resting and relieved 170 IB on 04/10/1918. EDIT 172 IB were not involved, being in support in the rear.

EDIT The only possible is the action of 2/4 Bn Loyal North Lancs who were ordered to attack Z Trench on the left of 1/5 LNL. They achieved this objective but according to the Narrative in the War Diary of 170 Infantry Brigade the Company that occupied it were cut off. Attempts were made to get to this Company without success. They must have been across the Canal because the Narrative records that one man swam across the canal to report to the Bn. 

Brian

Edited 14 December , 2023 by brianmorris547
additional info

[IRC Kevin]

Extract below from Volume 3 of The Lion and the Rose, my book about the 2/5th KORL. The coordinates for Z-Trench are 50°10'11.80"N 3°13'6.70"E. Hope this helps.

"Respite was short-lived. At 4 p.m. on 30 September, the battalion was ordered forward to reserve positions on the west bank of the canal, just north of La Folie Wood. The two Loyals battalions took over the lead from 171 and 172 Brigade at 11 p.m. At 6 p.m. on 1 October, these were to attack on the south-western side of Cambrai. To the brigade’s right, 52 Division would also move through 63 Division to attack. The 2/4th Loyals, on the left of the brigade attack, were to utilise two platoons to seize Z-Trench, (its shape occasioning its name) connecting the banks of the Canal de St. Quentin to the River Escaut. To their right, the 1/5th Loyals would attack a German trench running from 50°10'0.60"N 3°13'23.70"E on the left to 50° 9'38.70"N 3°13'31.90"E on the right. One company of the King’s Own was placed under command of the 1/5th, primarily to hold their trench in Proville whilst they assaulted. 

   When the division began their preliminary bombardment at 5.44 p.m., the enemy immediately retaliated with a heavy bombardment of Proville and the area to the west of it, causing heavy casualties among the Loyals. Initially the attack progressed well, with the capture of an enemy machine-gun nest and forty prisoners on the Proville – Cambrai Road, but soon stalled. Although heavy fire from both flanks was experienced by the 1/5th, the main culprit was a strongpoint previously reported as captured by 63 Division and thus not considered as a pre-attack bombardment target by divisional artillery. Unfortunately, earlier that afternoon it had been recaptured—with all of its garrison—a setback the Naval Division neglected to pass on. Withering enfilading fire from here cut down the attackers in swathes and only two officers remained from three companies. 

   On the left, the 2/4th fared better, their objective taken by 8 p.m. Z-Trench was considered a possible access route for an attack which could then swing right to take the 1/5th’s objective from the north, but when it was learned that 52 Division had been unable to hold Faubourg de Paris, this plan was dropped. The 2/4th were ordered to hold Z-Trench at all costs and send out patrols with the aim of establishing posts north of the canal. 

   On 2 October, the 1/5th pushed patrols along the south bank of the Escaut in order to establish contact with Z-Trench, but were driven back by heavy fire. Throughout the 2nd, enemy mortars were active against Proville and the area north of it, and at 5.30 p.m., a heavy Minenwerfer barrage descended on Z-Trench, the area to the west of it and Proville. Just before 6.30 p.m., a wet and bedraggled man from the garrison of Z-Trench reached Proville, reporting that the enemy had got behind Z-Trench and the garrison was cut off. The determined runner swam the canal to deliver his message. Although a patrol was sent forward to ascertain the situation, it was unable to get far and was pinned down by heavy fire from the German-held houses to the west of Z-Trench. That evening, the King’s Own came forward to relieve the 1/5th, who moved back to brigade reserve.

   At 10.20 a.m. on 3 October, an RAF observation aircraft flew over Z-Trench, then dropped a message at HQ reporting that although about 100-yards of the trench remained in British hands, the rest of Z-Trench appeared deserted. At 3 p.m., two platoons of the 2/4th attempted to rescue their ensnared comrades. Covered by a bombardment of medium and light mortars, the attackers only got 400-yards forward of the road leading northwards out of Proville, before coming under heavy machine-gun fire and after experiencing substantial casualties, gave their endeavour up. The 2/4th made one final attempt, this time working their way along the north bank of the canal, but were bogged down in the soggy terrain and came under heavy machine-gun fire. Clearly, if the men in Z-Trench were to be rescued, a stronger incursion was necessary.

   As the freshest troops in the brigade, this task was given to two companies of the King’s Own. With Zero Hour set for 6 a.m. on 4 October, artillery arrangements were hurriedly planned and attackers briefed. With the covering barrage falling to their front, the companies advanced. Both found the tangled undergrowth extremely difficult to progress through and about 500-yards into their advance, the right company came under very heavy machine-gun fire from the houses to the south of the river. The left company pushed on and succeeded in reaching the houses in what is now the Rue Lucien Sampaix. After bitter house-to-house fighting using copious bombs, the company cleared the first part of the street, but houses further down the road proved too strongly-held. Another RAF aircraft had overflown Z-Trench at 7 a.m., but perceived no visible sign of British defenders and the strength of enemy opposition now made it practically certain that none of the Loyals remained in their isolated position. Barnes decided there was nothing to be gained by risking more lives and at 11.20 a.m., phoned Brig.-Gen. Ransome, ordering consolidation of the line just to the north of Pronville, work the battalion completed by 7 p.m. At 10.55 p.m., elements of 171 and 172 Brigade relieved the battalion and the tired men were withdrawn to the south of Pronville. When Z-Trench was subsequently taken, evidence of considerable fighting was found, the bodies of some of its late defenders still sprawled on the ground."
 

Edited 14 December , 2023 by IRC Kevin

[brianmorris547]

Kevin

Thanks.

This agrees with the Narrative in the WD of 170 IB, in which the location of Z Trench is given as A 15 a and c.

As I was reading the narrative it rang bells with me. I am sure that this had come up on another thread.

Brian

[IRC Kevin]

Map from 57 Division's diary.

[dutchbarge]

Thank you Howard, Brian and Kevin.  The war diary information and maps are a huge help to me.  As ever I am awed by the depth of information possessed by the Forum members and the generosity with which they share it and their time.  Merry Christmas all.  Cheers, Bill  

[charlie2]

If you read the history of RIR 84 from page 301 - 307 it should provide some clarity. RIR31 was on the right of RIR84. RIR84 was occupying about 1500m of the front from Proville to La Marlière. 
 

Edited 15 December , 2023 by charlie2
The rest was rubbish :)

[dutchbarge]

Hello Charlie,  Here's my take.  According to Google maps, the distance from La Marlière to the Proville  is approx. 1500 meters.  From Proville to Z-Trench is approx. 800 meters.  As R.I.R. 84 was occupying the 1500 meters from La Marlière to Proville (and assuming that a regimental front was approx. 1500 meters) and R.I.R. 31 was to their right,  then R.I.R 31 was occupying the next 1500 meters which would put Z-Trench approx. in the middle of R.I.R.31's position.  This would square R.I.R. 31 WD's account of the 3 October 11 AM assault which "reclaimed" "all of the enemy's bridgehead position", with the 57 Division WD's 2 Oct repor that Z-Trench (held by 2/4 Loyal North Lancashire) was surrounded and the 4 October RAF report that "there was no visible sign of British defenders" in Z-Trench "the strength of enemy opposition now made it practically certain none of the Loyals remained (in Z-Trench)"*.  Does this make sense?  Cheers, Bill

* copied or paraphrased from Kevin's post of exerpts from his book The Lion and The Rose, Vol 3

Edited 15 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[charlie2]

Hello Bill

That makes sense to me, I think that you are correct. For some reason I had assumed La Marlière was north of Proville in my un-edited post, don‘t ask 

Charlie

[dutchbarge]

Thanks, Charlie, I really appreciate your help, and that of the other Members, in mapping the location of R.I.R. 31 during this period. I certainly would never have succeeded in doing so on my own.....Cheers, Bill

8 hours ago, charlie2 said:

If you read the history of RIR 84 from page 301 - 307 it should provide some clarity. RIR31 was on the right of RIR84. RIR84 was occupying about 1500m of the front from Proville to La Marlière. 
 

Cheers, Bill

[Howard]

1 hour ago, dutchbarge said:

Hello Charlie,  Here's my take.  According to Google maps, the distance from La Marlière to the Proville  is approx. 1500 meters.  From Proville to Z-Trench is approx. 800 meters.  As R.I.R. 84 was occupying the 1500 meters from La Marlière to Proville (and assuming that a regimental front was approx. 1500 meters) and R.I.R. 31 was to their right,  then R.I.R 31 was occupying the next 1500 meters which would put Z-Trench approx. in the middle of R.I.R.31's position.  This would square R.I.R. 31 WD's account of the 3 October 11 AM assault which "reclaimed" "all of the enemy's bridgehead position", with the 57 Division WD's 2 Oct repor that Z-Trench (held by 2/4 Loyal North Lancashire) was surrounded and the 4 October RAF report that "there was no visible sign of British defenders" in Z-Trench "the strength of enemy opposition now made it practically certain none of the Loyals remained (in Z-Trench)"*.  Does this make sense?  Cheers, Bill

* copied or paraphrased from Kevin's post of exerpts from his book The Lion and The Rose, Vol 3

I would suggest it is better to use the Bearing and Distance tool in TrenchMapper.

Then you can get accurate measurements straight off Great War features.

Howard

[dutchbarge]

Thank you, Howard.  No doubt TrenchMapper would be more accurate.  I would especially like to see the period map overlaying a google map.  At present I don't have the skill set to do so.  Learning how to use the TrenchMapper and actually mapping out my area of interest is project for later this winter when the weather forces me to keep indoors.  Cheers, Bill

[Howard]

6 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

Thank you, Howard.  No doubt TrenchMapper would be more accurate.  I would especially like to see the period map overlaying a google map.  At present I don't have the skill set to do so.  Learning how to use the TrenchMapper and actually mapping out my area of interest is project for later this winter when the weather forces me to keep indoors.  Cheers, Bill

All the TM maps are overlaid already, just use the slider (fader) top right. You can also change the modern basemap.

Howard

[dutchbarge]

Hello Howard........WOW......TrenchMapper is AMAZING......and simple to use.......only one question.......are the blue lines denoting trenches German or BEF? Thank you and Cheers, Bill

[AOK4]

30 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

Hello Howard........WOW......TrenchMapper is AMAZING......and simple to use.......only one question.......are the blue lines denoting trenches German or BEF? Thank you and Cheers, Bill

The colours changed during the war, it depends on the date.

[Howard]

3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

The colours changed during the war, it depends on the date.

That is indeed true and can be a nuisance. Sometimes you have to work out who was where to find out.

I always think the change was very odd during a war but it is partly explained by trying to align French and British practice.

German maps can be a problem as well. Unlike the British and French, they did not have a single mapping organisation, each army had its own, so there are cartographic differences along the front.

Don't forget there is extensive help in TrenchMapper including how-to videos.

Howard

[dutchbarge]

I suppose that as many times as the trenches changed hands the map colors were difficult to keep current.  Has anyone else wondered why Z-Trench was so named as it appears on maps as a somewhat stylized 'S' ?  Cheers, Bill

Edited 16 December , 2023 by dutchbarge

[Howard]

18 hours ago, dutchbarge said:

I suppose that as many times as the trenches changed hands the map colors were difficult to keep current.  Has anyone else wondered why Z-Trench was so named as it appears on maps as a somewhat stylized 'S' ?  Cheers, Bill

There is a whole book on that subject, Rats Alley: Trench Names of the Western Front, 1914 – 1918 by Peter Chasseaud.

Early in the war trench names were a bit ad hoc, later there was more organisation. Some were renamed to avoid various problems.

Howard

[brianmorris547]

Bill

I wonder if it looked more like a Z from the air. Since I can find no mention of it pre October 1918 I think it was probably named after an air photo.

Brian