ww1 303 rounds

[morrisc8]

I have just bought these 303 rounds and clips and what`s left of the cloth bandoleer from a guy in Belgium.

The 303 rounds have been fired and have a hole drilled out on the side and have had the heads taken out.

The rounds date from 1915 to 1917. With marks on the bottom VII K15, VII K16, VII K17 one with VII C 16. Some of them had a Z.

 You can still see the marks of the rounds in the cloth bandoleer.

Edited 11 December , 2023 by morrisc8

[JMB1943]

Some nice relic pieces there—-any markings on the bandolier?

My belief is that 

K = Kynoch Ltd, the manufacturer 

Z = armour-piercing 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[MikB]

'K' usually means 'Kynoch', followed by the last 2 digits of the year, 'Z' normally means nitrocellulose propellant charge - flakes or powder rather than tubular cordite sticks. But I dunno if this was in use in WW1 (?).

Mk.VII ball bullet jackets in WW1 were cupro-nickel, a silvery alloy when clean that slowly tarnished to a dull yellowish colour. Coppery-coloured bullets may date from WW2, when I think jacket material was changed to gilding metal, a higher-copper alloy with a little zinc. Some time after WW2 the 3 stab crimps on the neck were replaced by a casemouth roll crimp into a repositioned cannelure.

I see one case with a cracked neck - this probably happened on firing in a loose chamber at the top end of the tolerance range.

Edited 11 December , 2023 by MikB

[morrisc8]

[ any markings on the bandolier? ] Sorry to far gone 

[morrisc8]

Five more came in the post. 

The 303 rounds have been fired and have a hole drilled out on the side and have had the heads taken out.

The rounds date from 1917 to 1918. With marks on the bottom  VII Z .K17  and VII Z. G18 FI.

First time i have seen a clip like this one on the bottom. normal to have OOOO on the bottom and OOOOO on the side.

Rounds came from Belgium.

 

Edited 21 December , 2023 by morrisc8

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, morrisc8 said:

Five more came in the post. 

The 303 rounds have been fired and have a hole drilled out on the side and have had the heads taken out.

The rounds date from 1917 to 1918. With marks on the bottom  VII Z .K17  and VII Z. G18 FI.

First time i have seen a clip like this one on the bottom. normal to have OOOO on the bottom and OOOOO on the side.

Rounds came from Belgium.

 

That's a MkII charger, as made from 1906 to 1916. Replaced by the MkIII and MkIV in 1916 and 1917 respectively which are of the type you describe as being more familiar with (the MKIV was still in use throughout WW2 and beyond). See the link below for a handy guide to the different types:

 

Edited 21 December , 2023 by Andrew Upton

[MikB]

You might already know this, but the recommended way to set up a charger clip of 5 rounds 303 was '3 down, 2 up'.

That meant that the rims of rounds 1, 3 and 5 would be resting on the back rail of the charger, and rounds 2 and 4 would be set a little forward, so that their rims rested on top of the rims on adjacent rounds. Tapered case bodies and bullets would be pulled together to touch.

The objective was that the rounds could be thrust down under thumb pressure in the the magazine with the least practical risk of a 'rim over rim' stoppage (have to say I never experienced one o' them in 20 years owning and shooting a Mk.III*, whatever I did).

I don't know how things were in WW1, but in all the 1955 -57 303 rounds supplied in bandolier that I saw as a cadet in the 1960s, the users would have to do this for themselves - as taken from the box, they were pretty randomly inserted into the chargers rather like the last photos above. Presumably soldiers would set them up between getting their issue of ammunition and going over the top.

 

Edited 21 December , 2023 by MikB

[morrisc8]

Thank you Andrew and Mikb for the info.  I had forgotten about the way to load the rounds , i was a cadet in the 60s as well, used to go on the range at Purfleet and Shoeburyness with the 303 No4 and Bren guns. Still know how to strip and clean them.

[MikB]

6 minutes ago, morrisc8 said:

Thank you Andrew and Mikb for the info.  I had forgotten about the way to load the rounds , i was a cadet in the 60s as well, used to go on the range at Purfleet and Shoeburyness with the 303 No4 and Bren guns. Still know how to strip and clean them.

I used to shoot at Purfleet and Rainham ranges ! 

[Pete_C]

An excellent video dispelling the common myths around the 'misfeeding' of (military) rimmed 303 rounds and demonstrating the genius of Edwardian design and engineering. 

The configuration of rounds in the charger does not change how the rounds feed into the magazine but the approved '3 down, 2 up' method does give the most stable form for carriage in bandoliers and pouches.

Pete

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

It may not be an issue, but in cadet training in the early 70s, it was drilled into us, 3-down 2-up, no exceptions and that a rim jam could get you killed in combat. 

 

About half of my school teachers had served in WW2 (the rest were younger) as had both my parents. The cold war and the risks were seen as real. The training was taken seriously. The helicopter and armoured personnel carrier familiarization training was enourmous fun.

[morrisc8]

Marks on the base of the rounds VII Z K17 and VII G 18 FI. After a light clean of the clip i found [  II  ] above the red II on the side.

[morrisc8]

 3-down 2-up.  East Surrey Regiment 1917 at camp . 303 Inch in chargers I. IA on the side of the ammo boxes. Original photo taken from a negative in my collection.

                                                                   

[MikB]

14 hours ago, Pete_C said:

An excellent video dispelling the common myths around the 'misfeeding' of (military) rimmed 303 rounds and demonstrating the genius of Edwardian design and engineering. 

The configuration of rounds in the charger does not change how the rounds feed into the magazine but the approved '3 down, 2 up' method does give the most stable form for carriage in bandoliers and pouches.

Pete

Thanks for that video .

I've wondered if the fact the the rounds are laid together, touching, in a wedge formation - that makes it easy to push them down into the mag in a single movement - is the real reason for the 'approved' method, and the rim configuration is chosen only to facilitate that and make it symmetrical.

If there's much daylight between the rounds, that can produce trouble getting 'em into the mag. In action that would matter.

[morrisc8]

New to my collection a ww1 303 blank fired with VII K I