William Ross, died between 4 May & 31 Dec 1915 and William Milne, died between 12 Aug & 31 Dec 1918: Who were they?

[rolt968]

I am researching the men commemorated on the Hillside War Memorial (Montrose, Angus).

I am having difficulties identifying these two men and would appreciate any help, guidance or suggestions.

Hillside is a village and quoad sacra parish. The parish was created in the 1860s from the landward part of Montrose parish. The parish extends surprisingly for into the northern part of the built up area of Montrose. Unfortunately Hillside remained only an ecclesiastical parish and was still part of the civil parish and registration district of Montrose.

The Hillside War Memorial lists the names in chronological order of death. So far I have found only one error in the order. (There may be another but I think that the last name may have been a late addition.) This gives me the probable range of date of death. The war memorial lists only names and no other information.

Probably the main employer inside Hillside parish was the Sunnyside Royal Hospital.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunnyside_Royal_Hospital

Both men are in some way connected with Sunnyside and are commemorated on the Sunnyside Hospital war memorial. Sunnyside Hospital was a very large community and for example employed its own tradesmen. Hence these men may not have been professionally employed by the medical side of hospital itself (as attendants, for example). Also the connection may have been through their family rather than themselves.

I have checked the 1911 Census and found nothing useful so far. (A William Milne was a joiner at Sunnyside, but he was still there in the 1921 Census and seems not to have had a son called William.)

I have searched the newspapers – so far nothing.

There are three other men called Milne on the war memorial who were cousins. I have researched the Willliams in the various branches of their families and found nothing so far.

I fear that these two men may have come to work at Sunnyside from elsewhere between the 1911 Census and the start of World War One.

I have looked at both CWGC and the WFA pension records and found nothing. However I may have missed something particularly in the case of William Ross as there are more possibilities.

Guidance, advice and suggestions would be very much appreciated.  Many thanks.

RM

Edited 13 December , 2023 by rolt968

[chaz]

William Milne there are a couple of options for Montrose to explore. open dates for a memorial

Fold 3 has Alfred Wm Christison Milne,  29559 , R.F.A, but his death is recorded as 1902 South Africa , a cycle mechanic.

Ancestry have WR/258684 R.E. Railways, died 29/5/1918. formerly  4631  R.F.A (R.O.D) , (William Pert Milne 190728 R.E.) Mendinghem. Son of William and Jane from 2, Seagate, Montrose.).

he is recorded on the National War Memorial Index although tried, it tells me no match. 

or 39178 , Royal Scots, died 26/9/1917, formerly 10800 R Hrs,  Tyne Cot (born 1898, widow Mary, originally from Murray St, Montrose, then New Wynd, Montrose). posted missing on 15/11/1917 . De Ruvigny has him being a flax overseer .

[rolt968]

I'm not quite sure if this helps or confuses things.

1 minute ago, chaz said:

William Milne there are a couple of options for Montrose to explore. open dates for a memorial

Fold 3 has Alfred Wm Christison Milne,  29559 , R.F.A, but his death is recorded as 1902 South Africa , a cycle mechanic.

Ancestry have WR/258684 R.E. Railways, died 29/5/1918. formerly  4631  R.F.A (R.O.D) , (William Pert Milne 190728 R.E.) Mendinghem. Son of William and Jane from 2, Seagate, Montrose.).

he is recorded on the National War Memorial Index although tried, it tells me no match. 

or 39178 , Royal Scots, died 26/9/1917, formerly 10800 R Hrs,  Tyne Cot (born 1898, widow Mary, originally from Murray St, Montrose, then New Wynd, Montrose). posted missing on 15/11/1917 . De Ruvigny has him being a flax overseer .

Many thanks, Chaz.

I have wondered about both of those men and have not so far found a connection toHillside. Both the addresses are in the wrong part of Montrose. Both deaths were outside the range of dates suggested by the order on the war memorial. Oddly I am tempted to think the Royal Scots/ Black Watch man as the slightly more likely. Although his death is outside the range suggested by the order on the war memorial, he was originally declared missing and his death was confirmed (and announced in the local newspapers) in the correct date range.

I am still keeping both men as possibles. Incidentally both men are commemorated on the Montrose War Memorial. No other W[illiam] Milne is commemorated on the Montrose War Memorial.

RM

[chaz]

William Ross both from Dundee.  in your time period. dont think its either

7711   HLI  died 13/5/1915  dundee orphanage

or

7896 Royal Scots died 25/9/1915 enlistment says Dundee

[chaz]

the village I lived in has a war memorial, three local villages also commemorate on the same memorial. The local town memorial has names from the whole town and outskirts so possible .

[rolt968]

The article in the Montrose Standard on 13 May 1921 which describes the dedication of the memorial lists the units in which the men served. (The information about the link to Sunnyside Hospital which I gave in the original post comes from a list of men killed which was read in Hillside parish church in 1919.)

The 1921 Montrose Standard article says that William Ross served in the HLI and William Milne served in the Canadian Army.

There are only two HLI casualties who were killed in the appropriate date range in 1915. One is the 7711 who, as you say come from Dundee. The other is 7854 who came from Stirling.

No Canadian William Milne died in the correct part of 1918, but William Milne, 875015, CEF died in hospital in Buxton on 2 January 1919.

I am still working on the connections and families of these men, but have so far not found a link to Hillside.

I am not sure how reliable the Montrose Standard article is.

RM

[rolt968]

8 minutes ago, chaz said:

the village I lived in has a war memorial, three local villages also commemorate on the same memorial. The local town memorial has names from the whole town and outskirts so possible .

Yes. That's where it becomes tricky. There are three other Milnes (all first cousins) on the Hillside War Memorial. Only one of them is commemorated on the Montrose War Memorial.

I am not sure how much to rely on the 1921 article. There are a couple of errors in the units given for the other men. It also lists only two of the men as working at Sunnyside Hospital - which is not necessarily inconsistent.

RM

[chaz]

I think the fact one of them has three numbers or regiments could well confuse the news people. Just like the redeployment from a local regiment to Labour Corps or similar.

[rolt968]

I have been checking the war memorials of the neighbouring rural parishes: Dun, Logie Pert, Farnell, Marykirk and St Cyrus. There is some overlap. One man commemorated on the Hillside WM is commemorated on the Logie Pert church memorials. Another is commemorated on the Farnell WM.

RM

[grantowi]

Have you tried looking for an electoral role for 1918 ?

My town has one, with the men who were away serving listed as MN and are in a separate list to the home owners - it only gives the name and street address

It was done around the April time, so it might have caught the 2nd man ( you can then check the main part for the address and see if the parents are listed and if the parents of the first man were still in the area, might give a further lead on him.

Might also be worth checking the local paper for the period at the start of the war, my local paper printed names and the regiments that the local men joined - plenty of mistakes in ours, but it might lead somewhere

[rolt968]

16 hours ago, grantowi said:

Have you tried looking for an electoral role for 1918 ?

My town has one, with the men who were away serving listed as MN and are in a separate list to the home owners - it only gives the name and street address

It was done around the April time, so it might have caught the 2nd man ( you can then check the main part for the address and see if the parents are listed and if the parents of the first man were still in the area, might give a further lead on him.

Might also be worth checking the local paper for the period at the start of the war, my local paper printed names and the regiments that the local men joined - plenty of mistakes in ours, but it might lead somewhere

Thak you.

I have tried these with varying degrees of finding information and indeed the actual documents. However I am still working on them. The notes of who is serving in the local newspapers start well but seem to peter out disappointingly early in the war. The town council read the roll of honour of men who had died. So far in the council rolls of honour I have only found men I already knew about.

I have found another cousin of the other three Milnes on the war memorial whose forename was William. He was illegitimate but used his father's surname - so not Milne.

RM

[grantowi]

What about the AVL (Absent voters list) of 1918 ?

It took me years to locate the one for my town, it was held (in the original paper form) in the County's heritage centre with no plans to turn it into a digital format.

Also have you checked with the University of Dundee, as it looks like that have a register of attendants being engaged and leaving the hospital between 1907 - 1938 - https://archives.dundee.ac.uk/thb-23-6-1-2 - it looks like a visit job

Register of attendant engaged / ref THB 23/6/1/2 / dates 1907 - 1938

Register of attendants leaving / ref THB 23/6/1//3 / dates 1907 - 1938

Nurses record book / ref THB 23/6/1/6 / dates 1904 - 1950

Also loads of other records, so there might even be something in the minutes about the actual memorial

Happy hunting

[rolt968]

Just now, grantowi said:

What about the AVL (Absent voters list) of 1918 ?

It took me years to locate the one for my town, it was held (in the original paper form) in the County's heritage centre with no plans to turn it into a digital format.

Also have you checked with the University of Dundee, as it looks like that have a register of attendants being engaged and leaving the hospital between 1907 - 1938 - https://archives.dundee.ac.uk/thb-23-6-1-2 - it looks like a visit job

Register of attendant engaged / ref THB 23/6/1/2 / dates 1907 - 1938

Register of attendants leaving / ref THB 23/6/1//3 / dates 1907 - 1938

Nurses record book / ref THB 23/6/1/6 / dates 1904 - 1950

Also loads of other records, so there might even be something in the minutes about the actual memorial

Happy hunting

Surely men who were killed wouldn't be in the AVL. Finding AVLs in Angus is a bit hit and miss. I will check if they are available.

I had also thought about the Sunnyside records at Dundee University Archives and was going to contact them.

Thank you for the more detailed searches. Extremely useful.

I have been to Dundee University Archives before, but if I remember rightly to deposit records.

RM

[grantowi]

Didn't you say that one of your men died in late 1918 ?

The electoral roll was taken in April, so there is a very good chance that the news of his death had not yet filtered back, he might have even been listed as MIA, so the parents had every hope that he was still alive and added him to the ER. Had they been older men, who were home owners, there might not have been anyone that the death could be addressed to, so the neighbours tell the emanator that Mr Ross is serving with the army and he gets added

Even if the men are not listed, they might be family's with the same surnames listed, after all someone had to be around after the war to get the mans names added to the memorial (and possibly pay for the addition) that information can then be used to backtrack to the 1911 census.

Don't look for the AVL, look for the electoral rolls - this was part of my mistake - they are part of the ER, pages of streets of households then a repeated list of streets with the MN men (serving with the forces) for each parish - mine has 8 or 10, lots of pages.

Of course they may not be listed, but if you don't check, then you wont know :-)

[rolt968]

Thank you.

I will look for the electoral rolls. I'm not sure if they are available.

Edited 29 December , 2023 by rolt968

[grantowi]

Good luck, it took me a few years to track down mine

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

23 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Surely men who were killed wouldn't be in the AVL.

Never say 'Never'.
The earliest I have seen on a 1918 North Wales AVL was a man who was killed in Turkey in 1915.
There were many 1918 deaths on the lists.
The 1918 deaths are easily explained as having occurred after collecting the data for the AVL.
Earlier deaths might be explained by families still holding out for the miraculous return of a son missing in action.
There must be many more in the AVLs elsewhere.

23 hours ago, grantowi said:

It took me years to locate the one for my town

Which town is that?

[grantowi]

4 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Which town is that?

Sunny Swindon, in Wiltshire

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 hours ago, grantowi said:

Sunny Swindon, in Wiltshire

Thanks.
I've just sent you a PM.

[rolt968]

On 28/12/2023 at 16:46, grantowi said:

Also have you checked with the University of Dundee, as it looks like that have a register of attendants being engaged and leaving the hospital between 1907 - 1938 - https://archives.dundee.ac.uk/thb-23-6-1-2 - it looks like a visit job

Register of attendant engaged / ref THB 23/6/1/2 / dates 1907 - 1938

Register of attendants leaving / ref THB 23/6/1//3 / dates 1907 - 1938

Partly to take my mind off other things I went to Dundee University Archives this afternoon to consult the Sunnyside Royal Hospital Attendants Joining and Leaving Registers.

I found both William Ross and William Milne (and a few other men I have been researching.) At least I now know that one of my original sources is accurate and another is very inaccurate!

William Ross joined Sunnyside Hospital as an attendant on 14 June 1913 and left to join the army on 7 September 1914

William Milne joined Sunnyside Hospital as an attendant on 2 June 1915 and left to join the army on 20 July 1915.

I will need to think about the next step.

RM

[grantowi]

That was a nice result :-)

Did the registers give any personal details that might help identify them on the 1911 census ?

And at least you know that they both went into the Army, so that cuts down the search by 2/3rd's.

Might be an idea to go back to the newspaper, now that you have confirmed dates

Grant

[rolt968]

5 minutes ago, grantowi said:

That was a nice result :-)

Did the registers give any personal details that might help identify them on the 1911 census ?

And at least you know that they both went into the Army, so that cuts down the search by 2/3rd's.

Might be an idea to go back to the newspaper, now that you have confirmed dates

Grant

Alas only arrival dates in one register and leaving dates and the reason for leaving in the other. The leaving dates should give some idea when they joined the army. I have been working my way through the other men whom I have found and checking the approximate enlistment dates with the leaving dates and they do seem to match up.

I agree about the newspapers. I also think I should have another look at the 1911 Census. Also a number of men left on 7 & 8 September 1914 to join up. It might be worth looking to see if some of them joined up together.

Unfortunately I don't think there was so much of a group when Willim Milne joined up. (At least I am now sure that he wasn't a Canadian as suggested by one newspaper article, which contains a lot of errors.)

RM

[grantowi]

Did you see that there is also a plan for the war memorial - THB 23/21/21 - create in 1919, might be worth a look at?

There is also a file of staff pensions - THB 23/10/12/11 - might give some more information.

I'm really impressed with the amount of stuff that they have saved, it is a potential goldmine for anyone researching the area.

If quite a few joined up on the 7th  & 8th, that would suggest to me a local regiment holding a recruitment drive

Grant

[rolt968]

17 minutes ago, grantowi said:

Did you see that there is also a plan for the war memorial - THB 23/21/21 - create in 1919, might be worth a look at?

There is also a file of staff pensions - THB 23/10/12/11 - might give some more information.

I'm really impressed with the amount of stuff that they have saved, it is a potential goldmine for anyone researching the area.

If quite a few joined up on the 7th  & 8th, that would suggest to me a local regiment holding a recruitment drive

Grant

Thank you Grant,

I hadn't noticed those (very careless!) My researcher's ticket lasts for three years so I can easily go back, Enough was enough this afternoon.

The plan of the (hospital) war memorial intrigues me. (It looks rather like a small natural boulder with the names carved on it. ) I actually wonder if it is back in situ yet. They have been building houses on the hospital site and when I last heard it was stored with the promise to put it back when the building work was complete.

RM

Edited 5 March by rolt968

[grantowi]

The plan of the war memorial might also include the means of collecting the names to be included on it ?

If the war memorial is dumped in the middle of a housing estate, it will be damaged in no time. Here in my town we have a cemetery that is now closed for burials, it has a small Chapel of rest that has been taken over by volunteers, who do walks of the cemetery including the CWGC graves and local notable persons.

Over the years a lot of buildings have been repurposed in the town (Church's, Working mans clubs, factory's) and where possible the ROH's from those buildings have been relocated and put on display at the Chapel - which also holds a remembrance service in November - so that they are safe for future generations

Grant