Baker Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 When doing my family tree and, in particular, my mother's brother Alfred Lamb drowned at sea on 14th September 1939 after WW2 started when his ship MV Vancouver was sunk by U boat 28 off Ireland. I am totally confused, or am I missing something here???? according to his navy records, he served on HMS Defence, as you can see below, and there were no survivors. And yet I found this record. which is confusing. Besides being some sort of mistake, is that the only reason I'm coming up with? Or can someone on here come up with another one? Transcript of Alfred's record Copy to clipboard First name(s) Alfred Ship name Defence Last name Lamb Piece number 1119 Birth year 1892 Series ADM 188 Birth date 14 Apr 1892 Record set British Royal Navy & Royal Marines, Battle Of Jutland 1916 Servicemen Birth town Liverpool Archive reference ADM 188/1119/113896 Birth county Lancashire Archive The National Archives Birth country England Category Military, armed forces & conflict Service number SS113896 Subcategory First World War Rank - Collections from Great Britain, UK None Findmypast I do know this from my deceased relative that he died at sea as she recalls the family got a telegram confirming Alf drowning; below are the facts. MV Vancouver City British Motor merchant Name Vancouver City Type: Motor merchant Tonnage 4,955 tons Completed 1930 - William Doxford & Sons Ltd, Sunderland Owner Sir William Reardon Smith & Sons Ltd, Cardiff Homeport Bideford Date of attack 14 Sep 1939 Nationality: British Fate Sunk by U-28 (Günter Kuhnke) (This guy died in 1990) Position 51° 23'N, 7° 03'W - Grid AM 8966 Complement 33 (3 dead and 30 survivors). Convoy Route Suva, Fiji (5 Aug) – Panama (29 Aug) - UK Cargo 8400 tons of sugar History Completed in January 1930 Notes on event At 10.00 hours on 14 Sep 193,9 the unescorted and unarmed Vancouver City (Master Hugh Charles Egerton) was hit by one torpedo from U-28 while steaming on a zigzag course at 13 knots about 75 miles west-southwest of Milford Haven. The U-boat attacked the ship without warning because she was zigzagging and escorted by an aircraft. The torpedo struck on the starboard side at #4 bulkhead between the engine room and #4 hold and killed the second engineer, who was hit by a davit from the destroyed starboard lifeboat. Most crew members abandoned the ship in the port lifeboat after distress signals had been sent and acknowledged by Land’s End. The master and five men left in a jolly boat on the starboard side after searching for two missing crewmen who had been on watch below and were presumably killed by the explosion. The ship sank 13 minutes after being hit. The American steam passenger ship President Roosevelt and the Dutch motor tanker Mamura headed for the sinking position to rescue the survivors of Vancouver City after hearing her distress signals. The aircraft observed by the U-boat was the Sunderland L2167 (210 Sqn RAF) that remained near the lifeboats and dropped smoke floats to attract Mamura, which picked up the survivors at 13.00 hours and landed them at Liverpool later that day. The submerged U-28 tried to get into a favourable attack position on the tanker, but the presence of the flying boat prevented an attack. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 (edited) CWGC confirms he died on MV Vancouver.: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2783142/alfred-lamb/ As this is related to WW2, and not within the remit of this forum, I fear the thread may soon be locked by the mods. Edited 9 December , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 9 December , 2023 Admin Share Posted 9 December , 2023 I would recommend that you try ww2talk.com Unless anyone can find a WW1 connection, this will have to be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 1 hour ago, Baker said: according to his navy records, he served on HMS Defence He never served in HMS DEFENCE - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7079511 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 It's not unusual for WW1 sailors to serve their time, then go to sea as civilian seafarers in the interwar period, and for a few of them to have served at sea during WW1. Of course, any questions about WW2 are out of the remit of the GWF. SS113895 Frederick George Webber is on the same image, and FMP have inadvertently tagged both special (short) service ratings as having served aboard HMS Defence. A Jutland fatality. https://astreetnearyou.org/person/2867558/Stoker-1st-Class-Frederick-George-Webber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 He enlisted 24 April 1913, and was discharged to civilian life on 5 May 1919. He was enrolled with the Royal Fleet Reserve RFR/B/8204. He was mobilised from 11 April 1921 to 9 June 1921 and demobilised. I believe his reserve term of service period would expire on 23 April 1925. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 Partial image of statement of service, courtesy FindMyPast, who have erroneously added it to their Jutland dataset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Posted 9 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2023 Thanks, guys. First and foremost, he did serve in the 1st World War, and this post is related to the 1st World War as to my Uncle Alf.and his role in the Royal Navy during that time Keith _ History_bu that is a possible answer, and Findmypast have made an erroneous entry. Keith have seen all the above Dia Bach, thanks, but I've included that with my first post here. Thanks again, people, for your input. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 10 December , 2023 Share Posted 10 December , 2023 Was he promoted to Stoker 1st Class on 24 April 1914, after 12 months service at the entry level rating of Stoker 2nd Class? I can't decipher the date. His WW1 service is straightforward. He was aboard the cruiser HMS Berwick at the outbreak of war, and remained there until 12 November 1915 As of 13 November, he was subsisted on shore with other stokers at Devonport (Accounting Base HMS Vivid II) and remained there until 13 January 1916. From 14 January 1916, he was aboard the sloop HMS Marigold up until 5 May 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 10 December , 2023 Share Posted 10 December , 2023 12 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: Was he promoted to Stoker 1st Class on 24 April 1914, after 12 months service at the entry level rating of Stoker 2nd Class? I agree that date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 13 December , 2023 Share Posted 13 December , 2023 On 09/12/2023 at 19:47, Keith_history_buff said: He was mobilised from 11 April 1921 to 9 June 1921 and demobilised. I believe his reserve term of service period would expire on 23 April 1925. The background to this short mobilisation was the threat of industrial action by various transport workers unions in support of the miners who refused to accept a wage reduction and were locked out of employment from 31st March 1921. Although on 15th April 1921 ("Black Friday") the main transport & railway unions decided not to call a strike, union members were ordered not to handle imported coal. In May a dock strike started on the same day merchant seamen had their wages reduced. It's not quoted in the sources I have read but it's easy to see how concerned the government would have been about widespread industrial action as the it was less than four years since the Russian Revolution. The army reserves were also called out & a defence force formed from ex-servicemen and TA's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1921) http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/defence-force-1921/ Travers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Posted 13 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2023 Horatio2/Travers61 Thanks for the information, guys and everyone who has added to my info on my Uncle Alf Merry Chrismas to all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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