Steve1871 Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 (edited) My friend Paul, dealer/ collector offer me this small size pick axe with carrier. Searching the forum, I found Gunner Bailys post of a gorgeous top haft piece, I believe his to be prewar, most likely still used in Great War. I think his is far better , well made, and full grain cow hide. The one Paul offered me is split grain, or thinner leather. Scuffed, both straps are broken, can be fixed simple using this leather strip or cloth underneath with leather glue if take time and do right. Paul been in business over 30 years. Think he can do good job. He will also work on the leather care to clean without hopefully making too dark I have a Love and passion for old rifle/ carbine collecting and Bayonets. I also love the old leather,bandoliers, pouches and other. If I saw just the small pick axe, I would have no interest at all. But I really like that big leather rig. He said sell for around $650-700 U.S.D. that is a lot of money, not sure if I will get. Can you guys tell me a little about these rigs. Are they considered scarce or rare. We’re large amounts of them made pre/ and war time, just another piece equipment post war that nobody wanted and thrown out. I know Paul can do a lot to fix up, but have no idea of value or rarity. any of you guys thoughts please P.S., any idea on the unit?? Edited 8 December , 2023 by Steve1871 Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 8 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2023 Sorry, no could get two pice to load, redid one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 Hello, It doesn't seem a German marking to me. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 (edited) I couldnt say is german or not, the marking looks like it could be, anyway this could be a normal fireworker axe, as similar existed, II.Grt is mostly there it could be II. Gerät also second item, or the II. means a II.part of Fireworker unit to sample and Grt is shortage of town, Gruenstadt would be real to sample. Edited 8 December , 2023 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 17 minutes ago, AndyBsk said: I couldnt say is german or not, the marking looks like it could be anyway this could be a normal fireworker axe, as similar existed, II.Grt is mostly there it could be II. Gerät also second item, or the II. means a II.part of Fireworker unit to sample and Grt is shortage of town, Gruenstadt would be real to sample. Good idea Andy. I agree that it most probably is a marking from a fire department somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 A fire engine is also known as a „Gerät“ within the fire service, it could well have belonged to the equipment for „number 2 fire engine“ somewhere. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 This could be more real designation Charlie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 8 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2023 Thank you guys for quick reply. I going to skip this item.It still is an interesting set though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 8 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2023 I do believe it German military equipment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 8 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 (edited) It was probably same pieces used in military and and by fireworkers, by missing army proofs as are on the second one item, i would tend that the first one is not a militaria proofed, not on handle, even not on leather hanger. PBA probably means a Pionier Bekleidungs Amt. Edited 8 December , 2023 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 8 December , 2023 Share Posted 8 December , 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, AndyBsk said: Pionier Bekleidungs Amt. Hi, could you provide proof of the existence of such a Pionier-Bekleidungsamt? Other than the Kleiderkammern of the Pionier-Btl., etc. I am not aware of their existence. The Bekleidungsämter I know were situated on the Korps-level. Thank you! GreyC Edited 8 December , 2023 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert.f Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 Hello, the same designation https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/pioneer-axe-holder-247-c-62c4a24be3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 Yes You are right its normally on Korps level, question is that this bavarian pionier material was integral of normal BA, or have different location, as mentioned it could be different meaning, anyway the P could be a Pionier as i assume this is a pioneer equipment?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 (edited) Hi, so no Pionier-Bekleidungsamt. I would have wondered if it were otherwise. There is a special book on Pioniere by the militaria-Verlag which might include a picture of Pionier-Äxte: https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=1909600&Language=de but as a non-specialist too expensive for me. The photos supplied by Steve1871 might come from that book. So who knows. This is definitely a Pionier with ax on back from my collection. Looks different to me. GreyC Edited 9 December , 2023 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 Yes this is more heavy, anyway when You found a Beilpicke 1909 , there is clearly same axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 9 December , 2023 Share Posted 9 December , 2023 Great shame it is not an Imperial machine gunners pick axe I would bite your arm off! There are currently some ‘axe’ sets on auctions but research essential. 😀 Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 9 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2023 Thanks Andy, GreyC and Vert F for your input and pics. I appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Mortimer Posted 14 December , 2023 Share Posted 14 December , 2023 (edited) Just throwing in my 2 cents here: Steve's "Beilpicke" is definitely not from a Pionier-unit, since they didn't use those at all. The only unit using them in the military was the infantry. Screenshot from "Das kleine Buch vom Deutschen Heere" (Oberleutnant Hein, 1901, p.269) Notice how item no. 232 clearly states "Beilpicke für Infanterie". Looking into the section "Record of the tools available to the troops" ("Pionier-Taschenbuch", 1889, p.57) under No.4: Pionier-Komp.: a) tragbar...: zur Erdarbeit: 88 große Spaten, 44 Hacken; zur Holzarbeit: 45 Äxte, 17 Beile. b) im Schanz- und Werkzeugwagen: zur Erdarbeit: 60 große Spaten, 30 Hacken; zur Holzarbeit: 20 Äxte, 12 Sägen. Dazu kommen noch in der Spalte "Bemerkungen": 50 Klammern [für Holzbalkenverbindungen], Tauzeug [Seile], Nägel, Zangen, Feilen, Fäustel, Hammer, Stoßäxte, Bohrer, Messer. Im Feldmineurwagen ferner alle Geräthe für Mineurarbeiten." [Pionier-Komp.: a) portable [=equipment on the man]: for earthwork: 88 large spades, 44 hoes [= pickaxe]; for woodwork: 45 axes, 17 hatchets. b) in the entrenching and tool wagon: for earthwork: 60 large spades, 30 hoes; for woodwork: 20 axes, 12 saws. In addition, in the "Remarks" column: 50 staples [for wooden beam connections], ropes, nails, pliers, files, mallets, hammers, axes, drills, knives. In the field miner's wagon also all equipment for mining work."] Engineers always used the "big boy toys". The infantry had a multipurpose tool in case there were no Pionier units available for Biwaks or smaller entrenching fortification works. I saw multiple war time photos of infantry soldiers with the Beilpicke, but never a Pionier with such a thing. They always had a big spade or pickaxe attached to their belt, like described in the 1889 book. Not much has changed regarding the tools on the soldier between 1889 and 1914-16. So either Infantry issue, or used by other, civilian organizations. I tend more to the civilian side (e.g. firefighters), since I haven't seen the "II.Grt" stamp in any of my literature/sources in a military context yet. Edited 14 December , 2023 by Sir Mortimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 14 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2023 That is Spit On there Sir Mortimer, thank you very much! Excellent work there!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 14 December , 2023 Share Posted 14 December , 2023 (edited) The period picture above speaks clear that the axe was used by soldier, i couldnt say its a pioneer or infantry but the period picture is from post 1910 period, and the handle was joined with leather strap with S98 scabbard. So it could be a handwerker inside of infantry regiment to sample. Anyway this is not a normal infantry soldier equipment. Other point is that this presented axe could be postwar for fireworkers but inspired with the M1909 evidently. The photo link has following info: Bavarian Infantryman with a short-handled pickaxe Interesting is the M1909 Beilpicke (kleines Schanzzeug), this was given to 10% of the EM in infantry units, the remainder had short handled shovels, so they are quite rare. There is a small strap on it to retain the scabbard of his bayonet: the S98nA. The latter is fixed to his Gew98. He does have outmoded ammo pouches, so I'm not sure whether he is line infantry. He is wearing the M1907/10 Feldrock with Brandenburg cuffs. I think I can see the Bavarian Rampart lion on the buttons. I guess the piping on the tunic is carmine, but the edge of the shoulder strap has a lighter color. I cannot make out the number. The Überzug of his Pickelhaube is unmarked. The flowers are typical for 'aufmarsch' pictures. Edited 14 December , 2023 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 15 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2023 Sir Mortimer and Andy This is what I really enjoy about the aforum. When members get interested in a photo or object,how much they can dig up, bring to life, so to speak. Great job, both of you, thanks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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