How Did the IWGC Determine Amended Dates of Death for Soldiers Buried Near Langemark July/August 1917?

[Mark Hone]

I am currently doing preliminary research for a talk on local soldiers serving with 38th (Welsh) Division in the summer of 1917. One of these was 54513 Private Richard Roberts, 16th Royal Welsh Fusiliers, from Deganwy. His body was located along with three others at 28.C.4.a.8.6, just short of the Steenbeek, in the triangle formed by Ieperstraat and Peperstraat. He was reinterred in New Irish Farm Cemetery along with the other three soldiers located: 34895 Private George Richard Ball, (incorrectly recorded as 'Batt' on the Burial return)16th RWF, 60697 Private Joseph Owen Morgan 16th RWF and 13444 Private George Wheatley 11^th Rifle Brigade. The dates of death of all of these is given on the Burial Return, available on the CWGC website, as 31st July 1917. However, these have been subsequently amended and now appear on the register and headstones as 2nd August for Roberts, Ball and Morgan and 14th August for Wheatley. I can understand the redating of Wheatley's death, as he was clearly killed during 20th Division's assault across the Steenbeek on 14th August but can any Forum Pal suggest what evidence might have been used in the case of the three RWF men? I am guessing that, rather than in the 31st July attack, as was initially supposed,  they must have been killed (possibly by the same shell?) when the Battalion was in support of the Divisional front line on the banks of the Steenbeek on 2nd August.

 

Edited 7 December , 2023 by Mark Hone

[John Milner]

113th Brigade War Diary

1/8/17 -  Wet Day.  Bombardment by enemy at 3.10 pm along Steenbeek, resulting in SOS sent up.  16th RWF moved to Cancer Trench, enemy intermittingly shelled our lines during night,

2/8/17 - Wet Day.  Dispositions - On right of Davies Street 15th RWF in Front Line, 16th RWF in Support.  On left of Davies Street 13th RWF in Front Line, 14th RWF in Support.  Heavy shelling by enemy during the day.

Hope this is helpful.

John Milner

[Mark Hone]

Thanks  John. The 16th RWF War Diary itself does not refer to shelling on the 2nd August, so that is very helpful. 

[brianmorris547]

Mark

Ptes Roberts, Ball and Morgan are shown as 02/08/1917 in action on the Register of Soldiers Effects but Pte Morgan has his Bn altered from 16 to 10 RWF. 

Brian

[Mark Hone]

Thanks, Brian. I'm not able to access that source so it is much appreciated. Am I right in assuming that the Register of Effects might well have been used when amending the date of death? Morgan can't have been with 10th RWF when he was killed as they were not part of 38th Division and were nowhere near Langemark at the time.  

Edited 6 December , 2023 by Mark Hone

[brianmorris547]

Mark

My first thought was that 16 Bn was correct since the 6 could have been mis read fror 0. I'm not an expert on the RSE so I can't answer. I don't know when the entry in the RSE was made but I would have thought quite a while after death.

RSE courtesy Ancestry

Brian

[Mark Hone]

Very interesting. By the dates on the document it looks like this entry was drawn up in June 1919.

 I realised when looking into this that I don't know anything about the mechanisms by which the War Graves Commission established things like date of death in the absence of information with the burial, ie what corroborative evidence  they consulted. They clearly used other evidence in this case as the obvious date would seem to be 31st July, which was originally assumed when the graves were discovered by the GRU, but these were ultimately amended. 

Edited 7 December , 2023 by Mark Hone

[brianmorris547]

Mark

I have always assumed that the details in the RSE came from the man's B 103 Casualty Form - Active Service. 

Brian

[Mark Hone]

Thanks, Brian. So that would most likely be the source for the amended dates of death. As I say, after all these years, I realised that I don't have a clear picture of the way the IWGC used corroborating written evidence to establish dates of death. I have come across two instances from the Second World War where the date of death on the headstone and in the Commission Register appears to be wrong by a couple of days. 

 

 

Edited 8 December , 2023 by Mark Hone