A. WERTH Imperial German M1871 Bayonet (sawback)

[nater]

Hey all, new forum member here. This sword has been passed down a couple generations in my family and I've been trying to find more info on it. I've managed to find a ton about the M1871 in general, however this forum is the ONE place I've found any mention of this sword in conjunction with A. WERTH

There's additional stamping on the scabbard but it's on the back side and I can't get a good look at it because the belt loop is covering it. I'm excited to see what knowledge y'all are able to share with me on this!

[Steve1871]

Hey nater, welcome to the forum.!

Steve here, I been collecting about 30 years now. . I do not have any books on hand, but production of the S.71 bayonet started in 1872, the  S.71mS  Pioneer ( Saw back) started a few years later. Originally for the M71 Mauser. When the Gew.88 commission rifle came out. As part of its design, the bayonet lug was set up to fit/ use the S.71 bayonet family. Being peace time and with huge numbers, it made sense. The thought at the time, in the 1880’s and 90’s, most countries in Europe, mostly France,were using long bayonets, a shorter one seemed to be a disadvantage to most.

Being a Saw back was simply a tool to cut brush for camouflage and stuff. Britain had saw backs in 1875 -79.    
 

In the Great War, Germany, most of Europe was not ready for war, Germany started out with a lot of Gew.88 rifles till heavy  production of the Gew.98 could fully replace them.. Even though the 1871 bayonet was obsolete, it fit the 88, and was issued to rear area troops. Many rear / support troops, units got these larger/ older bayonets in Ersatz, or replacement,  units, similar to substitute class. The “E” in the unit may stand for Ersatz, but the 22 next seems too high for a company. Experts will help me out with that
I can not read fully the unit

…….. R ( script) is reserve infantry regiment, there should be a number in front

With the red paint, I thinking post war a military school may have used it. The bottom of scabbard has red letters too. The frog is a parade type of post war, closer to 1930’s.. the spine looks to have dried grease or some varnish which should be easy to clean. The Maker is the BIG thing I am interested in. In all my years collecting, I have not seen or heard of that maker. The maker alone makes your bayonet scarce. The saw back also is scarce. I have seen saw back ones sell for U.S. $ 700 to $1000. It all depends on condition. The scabbard is also the correct one. Please try get better photos of the unit, also, any markings, stamping on the lower front or back of the cross guard . Thanks for posting. Hope I no drone on too long here 

Steve

[bert.f]

Hello, A, WERTH wery made  the IS 1871 Bayonet in the years 1876-1877, a very rare manufacturer

Edited 5 December , 2023 by bert.f

[AndyBsk]

You should look at front of R for number of reserve Regiment, E means probably a Ersatz Batallion, the area of marking should be gently cleaned. Scabbard was probably made by different maker anyway is correct for sawback version, most real Werth delivered only bayonets. Red paint is not period offcoarse as the rivets of frog would be not painted, same as not the spring, this frog is mostly WW2 with secure strap also wrong there (should be maker marked on backside). Should be compared the proofs on crosspiece and pommel area as is possible that Werth only delivered the blades.

Edited 5 December , 2023 by AndyBsk

[nater]

12 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Hey nater, welcome to the forum.!

Steve here, I been collecting about 30 years now. . I do not have any books on hand, but production of the S.71 bayonet started in 1872, the  S.71mS  Pioneer ( Saw back) started a few years later. Originally for the M71 Mauser. When the Gew.88 commission rifle came out. As part of its design, the bayonet lug was set up to fit/ use the S.71 bayonet family. Being peace time and with huge numbers, it made sense. The thought at the time, in the 1880’s and 90’s, most countries in Europe, mostly France,were using long bayonets, a shorter one seemed to be a disadvantage to most.

Being a Saw back was simply a tool to cut brush for camouflage and stuff. Britain had saw backs in 1875 -79.    
 

In the Great War, Germany, most of Europe was not ready for war, Germany started out with a lot of Gew.88 rifles till heavy  production of the Gew.98 could fully replace them.. Even though the 1871 bayonet was obsolete, it fit the 88, and was issued to rear area troops. Many rear / support troops, units got these larger/ older bayonets in Ersatz, or replacement,  units, similar to substitute class. The “E” in the unit may stand for Ersatz, but the 22 next seems too high for a company. Experts will help me out with that
I can not read fully the unit

…….. R ( script) is reserve infantry regiment, there should be a number in front

With the red paint, I thinking post war a military school may have used it. The bottom of scabbard has red letters too. The frog is a parade type of post war, closer to 1930’s.. the spine looks to have dried grease or some varnish which should be easy to clean. The Maker is the BIG thing I am interested in. In all my years collecting, I have not seen or heard of that maker. The maker alone makes your bayonet scarce. The saw back also is scarce. I have seen saw back ones sell for U.S. $ 700 to $1000. It all depends on condition. The scabbard is also the correct one. Please try get better photos of the unit, also, any markings, stamping on the lower front or back of the cross guard . Thanks for posting. Hope I no drone on too long here 

Steve

Steve, thank you so much for all of this info! I was also having trouble seeing the full unit marking but was hesitant to do any cleaning to it prior to hearing from some folks with knowledge in this area. I believe my grandpa applied some grease or oil to the blade, I'm assuming to deter rust..? What would you suggest for methods of cleaning it up a bit to see if I can find more markings or stamps?

Here's a shot of the back of the frog. I'm assuming my grandpa was the one that painted the lettering. I don't know if he also added the frog himself or if that's original but there's a stamp on there that should shed more light on that. 

Edited 5 December , 2023 by nater
add photo

[nater]

10 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

You should look at front of R for number of reserve Regiment, E means probably a Ersatz Batallion, the area of marking should be gently cleaned. Scabbard was probably made by different maker anyway is correct for sawback version, most real Werth delivered only bayonets. Red paint is not period offcoarse as the rivets of frog would be not painted, same as not the spring, this frog is mostly WW2 with secure strap also wrong there (should be maker marked on backside). Should be compared the proofs on crosspiece and pommel area as is possible that Werth only delivered the blades.

Thank you for this insight! What would you suggest for a method of gently cleaning to trying finding more detail in the unit marking?

I'm assuming the frog was added by my grandpa, but am not positive. I also assume he did the red lettering on the back. If that's true, it seems like safe to assume the other bits of red paint were done at the same time. I don's see a maker on the frog but there is some kind of reference number stamped on it. I've added a photo of the back of the frog.

 

11 hours ago, bert.f said:

Hello, A, WERTH wery made  the IS 1871 Bayonet in the years 1876-1877, a very rare manufacturer

Oh, this is good to know! Thank you!

 

Edited 5 December , 2023 by nater

[Steve1871]

See Duluth Minn.  I guess you are state side. 
to try clean the cross guard a bit, you can use almost any kind of heavy duty cleaner. Not so strong, I have used ( simple green) from Wal Mart with those green nylon scouring pads , can get 4-5 packs at any ( dollar tree) store. On cleaning some antique bandoliers. The brass and copper too, fittings and found simple green actually cleaned up the brass some,without making it too shiny.  did not scrub too hard and whipped away after half a minute, then glass cleaner to simply get any chemical stuff (simple green) off. And the brass rivets and other came out nice. Just something I tried. 

[Steve1871]

You probably want to keep the frog as memento of your grandfather but it is not correct for the bayonet. Most likely a dress piece from 1930’s  through WW 2

[nater]

2 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

You probably want to keep the frog as memento of your grandfather but it is not correct for the bayonet. Most likely a dress piece from 1930’s  through WW 2

I'll try some cleaning and see what I can figure out. Knowing the frog isn't original to the bayonet is actually good news. I've been trying to figure out the best way to remove it so I can access the stamping beneath it but the leather is really brittle. This makes me less concerned if the frog takes on a little damage in that process.

[AndyBsk]

As You could see the owner GI capturer and state is on backside of the frog, so the frog (no dress) in reality is a Wehrmacht service piece for S84/98, marked with code RFNr which is only one reffered, the codes are used since 1943, so the frog is 1943-44 production.0494 is code for teritory and 0008 is code for maker. One part of secure strap is broken off and missed with the knob.

The bayonet crossguard could be cleaned with appliyng gun oil, and gently brush with 0000 steel or brass wool, not to scratch the surface, only remove the rust. Scabbard was repaired on stiching.

Edited 6 December , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Thank’s for correcting me there Andy. I sure you right. I only knew the retaining strap was added in the 1930’s. Third Reich era. I did not know/ understand that coding

[jacks back]

Nice bayonet. Here's a variation I guess with no saw back. I like the rolled etching I think it's called out of the scabbard.

[jacks back]

Hahaha

What it is is a very nice presentation sword /bayonet if you wish be picky. ***. 

But I did notice a post quite active but closed for comments. ***. Taboo for someone and not "great war material but I think it all makes a whole. And many parade earlier k98's were private purchased for officers technically making them not worthy of discussion but it all evolves and makes a whole. And when losing and down to women , children and adults it likely didn't matter as the frontline seeked payback. 

Edited 8 March by jacks back

[jacks back]

But some of them are only 5 or so yrs manufactured "after the great war" but it don't matter if someone sticks you with it. Not ideal but nasty enough. 

Edited 8 March by jacks back
Because time wasted for someone just like for me is no good but I'd rather have discussion than blank nothing's for years.

[AndyBsk]

No, feel free to present Your nice bayonets, anyway it should be started with a new thread, as Your Extra bayonet doesnt look it have a Werth marking.

[jacks back]

Thanks for that polite and attentive response. I'm not into starting threads for now as you seem to jump right on every post I make so NOW we have that sorted I feel like I will thanks hahaha and I have some nice ones IF that's all you wish others to see. Have a great day. ***. 

Just now, jacks back said:

Thanks for that polite and attentive response. I'm not into starting threads for now as you seem to jump right on every post I make so NOW we have that sorted I feel like I will thanks hahaha and I have some nice ones IF that's all you wish others to see. Have a great day. ***. 

Oh and feel free to provide negative input on others responses and let's get some other stuff on here now. ***.