Russian vessel with troops onboard - Lerwick Shetland 1916

[johnvoe]

The Lerwick Port records from July 1st 1916 shows the following arrival - "Russian transport with troops and two destroyers along with her". As can be seen from the attached photo there's no ship's names or ports where from or to.

Would anyone know why a Russian ship might be passing through Lerwick with troops onboard, who were they and going where?

Hoping someone might be able to throw some light on this.

Many thanks

Edited 4 December , 2023 by johnvoe
Adding Shetland

[JMB1943]

Interesting, does the date tie-in with the alleged sighting of Russian troops at Glasgow railway station?

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: If you can identify the two destroyers in the escort (via their logbooks) all might be revealed. It does seem to be deliberately vague.

Edited 4 December , 2023 by JMB1943
Add info.

[johnvoe]

Thanks, that's interesting. I'd never heard about the alleged report of Russian troops at Glasgow railway station. Were these maybe Russian Expeditionary Forces enroute to France?

I have the Lerwick port records copied from August 1914 to November 1917 and seldom are naval vessels named or visits mentioned so unfortunately difficult to establish names of these.

Thanks again

John

[JMB1943]

I wouldn’t be surprised if either/both @KizmeRD or @horatio2 has a listing of all destroyers in the RN in July 1916.

All that is then needed is to spend weeks at TNA going through each of the 50-100 or so logbooks to find which HMS put into Lerwick on July 1, 1916. The two logbooks should give details of the escort mission, unless it was ultra-secret.

IIRC, my awareness of the Russian troops legend was picked up online here at the GWF.

I’ll have a quick search of the forum later.

Regards,

JMB

PS. Isn’t there a Sullum Voe in the Orkneys or Shetlands?

[seaJane]

2 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Isn’t there a Sullum Voe in the Orkneys or Shetlands?

Sullom Voe - an inlet in Shetland. Now an oil terminal.

[KizmeRD]

Anyone having a copy of Cockfield’s book should be able to shed further light on this matter, but suffice to say that it’s possible that a transport ship carrying some units of the Russian Expeditionary Force required bunkering in the Shetlands en route to France.

And also probable that the transport* was accompanied by two non-Royal Navy destroyers (French or Russian).

MB

Edit - * ‘La Lorraiine’ ???  No, must have been some other transport ship.

Edited 5 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[JohnH]

@johnvoe Also at Lerwick Harbour on 1 July 1916 was the Armed boarding steamer ROYAL SCOT which arrived there in the early morning to transport ratings from the R.N.R. Shetland section who had volunteered for service out with Shetland.  The ROYAL SCOT left Lerwick on the evening of Sunday 2 July 1916 with 100 ratings on board bound for Scrabster.  Source : ROYAL SCOT ship's log 1 & 2 July 1916 per TNA ref ADM 53/58724. (Sadly no details of other ships in Lerwick Harbour apart from unnamed Collier)

The Shetland News account on 6 July 1916 of the RNR ratings departure on 2 July appears to mention this Russian steamship. 

[KizmeRD]

Ships allocated for the transport of Russian Expeditionary Force soldiers* from Archangel to Brest or Nantes (and then onwards from Marseilles to Salonika) included  MEDIE (Medea), MINGRILI, MELBOURNE, LOIRE, IMPERATRICE CATHERINE II, VORNEGE (Voronezh) UMONA, TCHIKATCEF, PHRYGIA, PLATA, VENEZUELA, DJEMNAH and UMGNENIE.
Which of these called-in at Lerwick en route, I can’t yet determine.

MB

* Being the 3rd Brigade (the 1st Brigade having arrived earlier in April 1916).

Edited 5 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[The Treasurer]

The 2nd Special Infantry Brigade (about 9,000 men) and reinforcements for the 1st (about 600) were sent in seven transports from Archangel to Brest and nearby ports between 22 June and 15 August in three groups. Each convoy was escorted as far as Cape Nordcap by Russian TBs and auxiliaries. They then sailed independently, but trying to keep together (different speeds and fog caused problems.) On approaching Brest they were met by French warships to escort them in. Details from Pavlovich, Fleet in the First World War. Managed by French Mission at Archangel. Venezuela was in second group leaving 28 July and was met 300 miles out from Brest and brought into Nantes. This therefore suggests that the transport at Shetland was part of the first group.

[Mikhail]

14 hours ago, johnvoe said:

The Lerwick Port records from July 1st 1916 shows the following arrival - "Russian transport with troops and two destroyers along with her". As can be seen from the attached photo there's no ship's names or ports where from or to.

Would anyone know why a Russian ship might be passing through Lerwick with troops onboard, who were they and going where?

Hoping someone might be able to throw some light on this.

Many thanks

2nd Special Brigade of the Russian Expeditionary Force Formed in May-June 1916, 193 officers and 8762 people. (all Siberians)
Arrived in Arkhangelsk: June 1916
Departure from Arkhangelsk: June 26 – July 15, 1916
Commander - Major General M.K. Dieterichs
Chief of Staff – B.A. Durov

The 2nd Special Brigade of the Russian Expeditionary Force was sent from Arkhangelsk by sea to France, then through France by rail to Marseille, and from there by steamship to Thessaloniki.
July 3, 1916 (I assume that hereinafter all the data are in the new style, and in your document - in the old style) a convoy consisting of 9 French and English ships (including the "Venezuela","Martazan", "Umtali" and one Russian - "Ekaterinoslav") left Arkhangelsk.

For the first two days of the voyage, the transports were guarded only in the form of the Russian gunboat "Vaigach". Then they were supposed to be accompanied by British warships, which never appeared on the horizon, although there was a real threat of attack from German submarines. “Maybe it [the British government] protected our voyage, but I didn’t see how,” the head of the 2nd Special Brigade noted with sarcasm. And further: “I don’t know who is watching over our safety, but the impression we get is that everyone has abandoned us.”
On July 15, steamships with Russian troops met French warships - two destroyers and one “special vessel against submarines.” (...) ...antediluvian looking, which belongs in a museum, not in a modern fleet. But, however, it’s still better than nothing.”
From mid-July 16, the number of French ships increased to 6 units. The first transport “Venezuela”, with Dieterichs on board, arrived in Brest (France) on July 16, at 6 pm; the rest - until September 3 (conditions on the ships on which Russian soldiers were transported were extremely difficult).
As planned, the brigade was transported to Marseilles through France, which enthusiastically greeted the Russian soldiers, boarded the auxiliary military cruisers Gallia and Güchen (August 5) and delivered to Thessaloniki a few days later (traveled mainly at night).

[Mikhail]

Commodity and passenger ship "Ekaterinoslav" (second)
Former German cargo and passenger steamer "Assyria". Single-deck steel hull with double bottom. Mechanisms from John C. Tecklenborg AG. Initially it was equipped with 3 cylindrical boilers. It had two masts and one chimney. After construction, it belonged to the company Hamburg-Amerikanischen Packetfahrt AG and was assigned to Hamburg.

On January 29, 1905, the steamer “Ekaterinoslav” (the second) was purchased from the owner company by the Maritime Department for DM 1,600,000 for a Special Expedition to deliver crews to ships purchased in South America. In April 1905 he arrived in Libau from Germany and received the name “Sveaborg”. On 05/11/1905 an order was issued to cancel the expedition and in June 1905 he arrived under a commercial flag from Libau to Kronstadt. On July 24, 1905, it temporarily came under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Railways for the urgent delivery of goods to the mouth of the Yenisei. At the beginning of August 1905, he left Kronstadt for Aleksandrovsk-on-Murman, from there, under the guidance of the icebreaker Ermak, he arrived through the Kara Gate to Golchikha, where he unloaded. On October 3, 1905 he returned to Kronstadt.

On October 31, 1905, the steamer “Ekaterinoslav” (the second) was purchased by the Voluntary Fleet together with the transport “Narva” for a total amount of 860,000 rubles. to make up for losses incurred during the Russo-Japanese War. On 12/29/1905 it was renamed “Ekaterinoslav” and then received registration at the Libavsk commercial port under No. 209. On 02/07/1906 it arrived in Odessa from Kronstadt and was placed on the Far Eastern line. In December 1910, while returning from Vladivostok, it was damaged during a grounding near Jeddah. In January - February 1911, it was overhauled in Sevastopol. In the winter of 1913 - 1914. again undergoing major refurbishment in Newcastle.

On June 20, 1914, he set off on the next flight from Vladivostok to Odessa, but due to the outbreak of the First World War, the entry into the Black Sea was canceled. Then it was used to transport export cargo between the ports of the Allies and the Russian North. In July - August 1916, he participated in the operation to transfer three special brigades of the Russian expeditionary force from Arkhangelsk to France. In December 1917, in Arkhangelsk it came into the possession of the British Admiralty with the aim of centralizing the management of transport operations of the Allies.

After the signing of the separate Treaty of Brest-Litovsk by the Soviet government, it was requisitioned in March 1918 by the British authorities and transferred to the management of The Shipping Controller with an attachment to the Port of London. The operating company was Royal Mail Steam Packet Co. From September 1921 it stood unused in Milford Haven. By the time of the creation of the Soviet Voluntary Fleet in January 1922, it was at the disposal of the British government. In April 1923, by court decision, it was transferred to the Soviet Voluntary Fleet, but due to poor technical condition, it was then sold for scrap to a German company. In the summer of 1924 it arrived in Kiel, where it was soon dismantled for scrap.

[KizmeRD]

34 minutes ago, Mikhail said:

On July 15, steamships with Russian troops met French warships - two destroyers and one “special vessel against submarines.” 

Firstly, thank you @Mikhail - your knowledge of this the movement of the Special Infantry Brigades of the Russian Expeditionary Force is very much appreciated (and it’s well outside my own area of expertise).

Secondly, do we need to deduct 13 days from the dates that you provided (to account for differences between Gregorian and Julian calendar)?

MB

[Mikhail]

1 minute ago, KizmeRD said:

Secondly, do we need to deduct 13 days from the dates that you provided (to account for differences between Gregorian and Julian calendar)?

 

Yes I think so and I wrote because of that "...I assume that hereinafter all the data are in the new style, and in your document - in the old style".... 

[The Treasurer]

1 hour ago, Mikhail said:

July 3, 1916 (I assume that hereinafter all the data are in the new style, and in your document - in the old style)

@Mikhail. Thanks again for the contribution and these details - a whole lot better than the source I have. We have very few good English sources for Russian Fleet operations.

 

On dates I've noticed Pavlovich occasionally slips into old style (Julian) as opposed to new style (Gregorian) dates. So adding 13 days for Gregorian dates: 22nd June would be 5th July, 28th July would be 11 August and 15 August would be 28 August.

 

The numbers of ships and dates are still a bit out. It may also be that something has been lost in translation, as the Rao text can be a bit hit and miss. Its a translation of Флот в Первой Мировой Войне: by Николай Брониславович Павлович

Edited 5 December , 2023 by The Treasurer
corrected Russian!

[KizmeRD]

I’ve managed to locate confirmation of the sailing and arrival dates of the 2nd Brigade’s 3 troop convoys to France (along with additional details of subsequent sailings), see attached…

MB

Edit - see link to very interesting website (in French/Russian)…

https://www.brigadesrusses.fr/Corps_Expeditionnaire_Russe_en_France_1916-1918_Brigades_Russes_Speciales_d_Infanterie_16-18_Premiere_Guerre_Mondiale.P.htm
 

Edited 5 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[The Treasurer]

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

I’ve managed to locate confirmation of the sailing and arrival dates of the 2nd Brigade’s 3 troop convoys to France (along with additional details of subsequent sailings), see attached…

MB

Edit - see link to very interesting website (in French/Russian)…

https://www.brigadesrusses.fr/Corps_Expeditionnaire_Russe_en_France_1916-1918_Brigades_Russes_Speciales_d_Infanterie_16-18_Premiere_Guerre_Mondiale.P.htm
 

@KizmeRD brilliant find! The covering letter (dated 11th July) does state that this is a provisional forecast of the dates of each convoy though:

The caption confirms this:

prior to July 10, 1916:

Transport forecasts for the 2nd to the 7th Brigade + 1 Reinforcement Brigade, departing Archangelsk (© SHD, 7N390)

[KizmeRD]

Yes, and Mikhail will probably be able to confirm, but as far as I’m aware, a number of the intended special brigades ended up never leaving Russia.

MB

[KizmeRD]

Only the first 4 brigades out of the planned total of 7 actually sailed.

MB

[The Treasurer]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Yes, and Mikhail will probably be able to confirm, but as far as I’m aware, a number of the intended special brigades ended up never leaving Russia.

MB

@KizmeRD @Mikhail We have a "date stew". Different primary/secondary sources quoting a mixture of planned dates of departure versus actual dates of departure, perhaps also overlaid with the differences between Julian and Gregorian calendars. A familiar problem unfortunately.

However, one thing is clear. An arrival noted in a primary source log in Lerwick is a Gregorian date. 1st July in the Julian calendar is 18th June. So, either way if the transport in question came from Archangel, it had to leave there in June, in either calendar.

The quickest likely way to confirm the two destroyers arriving at Lerwick would be to check the Home Fleet signals for the day - it would probably be in there. ADM137/248 has 1st July, but that's still a trip to Kew! If the transport itself isn't named in the signal, it would then be easy to go straight to the relevant destroyer logs (assuming they survive).

Edited 5 December , 2023 by The Treasurer

[johnvoe]

A huge thank you to everyone who have made such interesting contributions to this thread so far. I continue to follow it closely! John

[johnvoe]

With regard to the Ekaterinoslav and lest it be of interest she appears in the port records on 12 July 1917, noted as arriving Lerwick from Archangel and sailing again on the 14 July 1917 to New York.

Gladys Royle is noted in the port records as arriving Lerwick 10 November 1916 from the White Sea. No sail date shown

Rutherglen is noted in the port records as arriving Lerwick from the White Sea on 15 July 1916 and again from the White Sea on the 08 November 1916. No departure dates shown for either

[Mikhail]

12 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Only the first 4 brigades out of the planned total of 7 actually sailed.

MB

yes You are absolutely correct. 

The 5th, 6th and 7th Special Brigades, originally intended for France, were sent to the Romanian front. We also had to abandon the project of sending new regiments to France to form four Russian divisions.

[KizmeRD]

As yet we have yet to establish for sure whether any of the transport ships carrying the 2nd Special Brigade of the REF actually made a stop-over in Lerwick. 

I have now managed to read a copy of ‘Snow on their boots’ by Jamie Cockfield, but actual voyage details are not well recorded in the book, which tends to concentrate more on the politics of the deal for getting the Russian troops to France, and then what they got up to after they arrived. (Albeit little more than a symbolic presence, the sending of the Russian troops to France had been negotiated partly as payback for French arms and munitions supplies to Russia).

In any case, the fact that 4 Russian brigages (out of the planned 7) actuallymade this journey is nevertheless still remarkable, given the fact that Brusilov would have been desperate for Russian troop reinforcements to support his own ongoing offensive. 

MB

 

 

Edited 6 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[JohnH]

On 05/12/2023 at 19:34, The Treasurer said:

The quickest likely way to confirm the two destroyers arriving at Lerwick would be to check the Home Fleet signals for the day - it would probably be in there. ADM137/248 has 1st July, but that's still a trip to Kew! If the transport itself isn't named in the signal, it would then be easy to go straight to the relevant destroyer logs (assuming they survive).

I'm currently carrying out some research into naval operations in Shetland during the Great War with the help of a London based researcher. I'm happy to ask her to look out ADM137/248 on 1st July 1916 next time she visits TNA. 

[johnvoe]

That would be really helpful and much appreciated John. Many thanks.