How aware was the front-line soldier that the end of the war was imminent?

[Nick Gould]

This is my first posting on this forum so apologies if this is in the wrong place.

I have an ancestor who died in Belgium at the end of October 1918 while serving as a private in the Lancashire Fusiliers. How aware would he have been that the war was nearing an end? What knowledge would he have had of the "bigger picture"?

[kenf48]

50 minutes ago, Nick Gould said:

What knowledge would he have had of the "bigger picture"?

Welcome to the GWF it's an interesting question.

Those who have interviewed veterans and their memoirs have suggested their knowledge didn't extend much beyond their section and at best to Company level.  Although a literate generation for this reason few other ranks wrote of their experience and those that did often wrote or recounted their experience many years later.

It was not so much a lack of curiosity more a matter of survival and reliance upon those around you.

There were rumours of course especially with the Armistice of Mudros with the Ottoman Empire was ratified on 30 October 1918 but it was reported in the British Press the German War Cabinet as late as the 2 November rejected the terms of an Armistice.  On the 25 October at a strategic meeting in Senlis the military leaders were still for fighting the  war as they were in the ascendancy and wanted to defeat the German Army on the battlefield.  This political and diplomatic negotiation was way above the knowledge of the men in the trenches.  Some were aware that German emissaries had discussed terms with Marshal Foch on November 10th, one unit even began a sweepstake as to when the Armistice would be.

When the Armistice did come the reaction was varied.  In the UK after being wounded George Coppard remembered the Naffi served free beer all day but he missed not being able to celebrate with his comrades.

As for those comrades in the Machine Gun Corps, some examples

"In early November 1918 126 Company reached the Fort de Mormal...as a result of an attack by 38th Division on November 3rd strong enemy positions had been captured...rows and rows of enemy dead were piled behind the tree trunks and in slit trenches...many had been bayoneted.  By November the 7th the forest had been cleared of the enemy. On the evening of November 10th we reached a small village and had a good night's kip on the floor of an abandoned school. Next morning, November 11th, we had assembled ready to move off when the order arrived 'stand fast'.  This order was soon followed by an announcement, "The war is over", he said." He then goes on to describe an encounter with German prisoners and a French boy".  He then looks into the school playground where'30 or more of our lads killed the previous day were awaiting burial".  

A signaller wrote,"When the message (announcing the Armistice) reached me I did not believe it.  I thought I must be dreaming."

Yet another gunner wrote, "Even at this stage of the danger lurked in harmless looking farmhouses and villages...on the evening of November 10th we anchored down in the vicinity of the the village of Avesnes"  Next morning when L/Cpl Brookes and I were busy cleaning and oiling the gun, Lt Brookes - our section officer - came along and in quite a casual manner said, "No firing after eleven o'clock, an Armistice has been declared". For a moment or two his remark did not seem to sink in. We could not believe it was all over"  

You can hear the voices of the soldiers and their reaction to the Armistice on this IWM Podcasr

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-armistice

The short answer to your question is that your ancestor who was killed in October would have had little knowledge the war was coming to an end.The fighting on the Western Front continued right up to the morning of November 11th.

 

[charlie962]

34 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The short answer to your question is that your ancestor who was killed in October would have had little knowledge the war was coming to an end.The fighting on the Western Front continued right up to the morning of November 11th.

The 'when' might have been unknown but the speed of advance must have meant the men knew they were winning.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 hours ago, Nick Gould said:

How aware would he have been that the war was nearing an end?

A very interesting question Nick. A very good one.
I once asked a D-Day veteran the same question, and he told me that as soon as D-Day was delivered he knew, and his mates all knew in their bones that the Allies were going to win the war. They didn't know when, but they knew they would win, and that was a terrific motivator during the last year of the war.

I would tend to agree that the poor guys in the BEF didn't see the end coming.
I'm sure that many optimists always hoped that victory would come one day, but they could never have been as confident as the boys second time round. Perhaps after August 1918 some of the more insightful of the General Staff realised that the BEF was at last winning unequivocally, but further down the chain of command, it probably was only on Armistice Day itself that most infantrymen realised that the war was indeed done.

[stevenbecker]

I don't know about that?

My GF brother was killed on the 3 Oct at Mont St Quentin after a tough fight around there, there was no reason to think the war was over, as all they wanted was a break from the constant fighting since Aug.

Even to higher ups were looking to 1919 for the fighting to continue

[WhiteStarLine]

2 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

killed on the 3 Oct at Mont St Quentin

Hi Steve,

Mont St Quentin was captured on September 2.  By 3rd October, the Australian Corps had breached the Hindenburg Line and were in the process of being withdrawn from their last major infantry engagement of the Great War.  Within a few days the Third Division was near Abbeville and presumably the other divisions in this vicinity.  So for the last month of the war they were far from the front and not in regular contact with other units engaging the German Army.

Cheers, Bill

[stevenbecker]

My mistake, it was the 2 Sept 1918

George was killed with the 28Bn just as they were finished the battle on Mont St Quentin

I am unsure where I got the 3 Oct, old age

Cheers

[Howard]

18 hours ago, Nick Gould said:

This is my first posting on this forum so apologies if this is in the wrong place.

I have an ancestor who died in Belgium at the end of October 1918 while serving as a private in the Lancashire Fusiliers. How aware would he have been that the war was nearing an end? What knowledge would he have had of the "bigger picture"?

You might get a good feel for that question from a BBC TV programme presented by Michael Palin, The Last Day of the World War One

It seems to be available from Dailymotion. It does not address your question directly but contains many clues.

Howard

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Even to higher ups were looking to 1919 for the fighting to continue

On 25 October  1918 Haig wrote in his diary expressing his anger that "The Premier of Australia (Hughes)had told the Australian troops that they would not be used in the line again for some months!  I want them to go into a sector very soon."   He noted the comparative casualties of the British and 'Empire' troops and declared, "the Australians therefore had the least claim for consideration on account of losses".  Haig was concerned as to the armistice conditions the French were trying to impose on the Germans and told the British War Cabinet if these were implemented the Germans would defend their borders.  It was his opinion this meant the war would continue for another year.  

The fact some soldiers participated in a sweepstake, as described in the IWM podcast and elsewhere, suggests they were aware the war was coming to an end, Germany's allies had surrendered and the Allies were in the ascendancy on the Western Front but there was little indication as to when it would happen.  

The end, although inevitable came suddenly.  More a consequence of mutiny and unrest in Germany, the infamous, 'stab in the back', than an end to the fighting.

[Nick Gould]

Many thanks for your responses. I suppose it highlights the fact that there were so many different experiences; those who were advancing rapidly might have suspected something was up, but it seems for most, in the BEF at least, it came as a surprise. Thanks for the pointers to other resources too. What a great forum!

[phil andrade]

Is it true that the Canadians who entered Mons on the morning of 11th November 1918 were committed to an advance, with some of the soldiers protesting that the action was bound to cause unnecessary loss of life in view of the war’s imminent end ?  The Corps Commander, Currie, was not forgiven by some of his troops for insisting on this last attack. That’s the story I’ve picked up , and I wonder how circumspect we should be, bearing in mind the distortion that the war’s folklore brings to bear.  The anecdote suggests that men were very aware that things were poised to end within hours, and the thought of taking risks in such circumstances must’ve been unbearable.

 

Phil

[Howard]

From this website.  "On 11 November alone were nearly 11,000 casualties, dead, missing and injured, exceeding those on D-Day in 1944.  Over 3,500 of these were American. "

Howard