Seeking help identifying my Lee enfield 1916 SHT. LE III* that was given to me by my grandfather.

[italianbadass656]

I was givin this rifle on my 16th birthday by my grandfather, immediately upon getting it i tried to find out everything i could about my personal firearms history. The problem is there’s so many markings, i could only understand the ones that where obvious but others i can’t find even after literal hours of searching…sadly this rifle landed in the hands of someone who valued hunting over history and removed most of the wood and “modernized” it, i get at one point these where abundant after the great war but…why my rifle *** anyways while restoring this rifle to her original glory i was hoping to learn what the stamps means as well as this weird number across the top of the barrel between the sights and breach,i tried to get pictures of it but its faded too much i believe it says 0120-3843-8452-0017? the last 4 are really hard to tell, pics below

thanks,

italian

[4thGordons]

Well there appears to be a mix of official and unofficial markings here

The rifle is an Enfield built Short Lee Enfield MkIII* (mark three star) made in 1916 serial number Z3682 (this number should also be stamped on the rear of the bolt handle and the bayonet boss under the muzzle (which is probably missing if the rifle has been sportered), and also on the underside of the rear sight leaf.

That much you probably knew.

At some point the rifle was owned by CANADA (there is a broad arrow in a C shown on several pics) on both the barrel and receiver.

Many of the stamps on the barrel knox form are British civilian proof stamps for a .303 rifle BNP, .303 2.222 18.5 Tons per square inch BNP (Birmingham Nitro Proof)  etc

There are also the standard military proofs (crown over GR over crossed pennants etc)

The odd numbering/marks I think are probably personal identification marks put on there with a pin punch and totally unofficial

They could be initials, or a phone number or perhaps a social security/national identity number (possibly your grandfathers?) - these are certainly not official military markings and date from after the rifle was sold into private hands

Chris

Edited 3 December , 2023 by 4thGordons

[16thBNCanScotJim]

2 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Well there appears to be a mix of official and unofficial markings here

The rifle is an Enfield built Short Lee Enfield MkIII* (mark three star) made in 1916 serial number Z3682 (this number should also be stamped on the rear of the bolt handle and the bayonet boss under the muzzle (which is probably missing if the rifle has been sportered), and also on the underside of the rear sight leaf.

That much you probably knew.

At some point the rifle was owned by CANADA (there is a broad arrow in a C shown on several pics) on both the barrel and receiver.

Many of the stamps on the barrel knox form are British civilian proof stamps for a .303 rifle BNP, .303 2.222 18.5 Tons per square inch BNP (Birmingham Nitro Proof)  etc

There are also the standard military proofs (crown over GR over crossed pennants etc)

The odd numbering/marks I think are probably personal identification marks put on there with a pin punch and totally unofficial

They could be initials, or a phone number or perhaps a social security/national identity number (possibly your grandfathers?) - these are certainly not official military markings and date from after the rifle was sold into private hands

Chris

Hi Chris, I am curious about the Canadian owned Lee-Enfields, how and when were they stamped.  I recall that they adopted the SMLE in 1916 from the Ross. Did the British armories stamp the C-broad arrow for the CEF, or did the CEF stamp the rifles in their own factory/armoury?  
 

Jim

[4thGordons]

9 hours ago, 16thBNCanScotJim said:

Hi Chris, I am curious about the Canadian owned Lee-Enfields, how and when were they stamped.  I recall that they adopted the SMLE in 1916 from the Ross. Did the British armories stamp the C-broad arrow for the CEF, or did the CEF stamp the rifles in their own factory/armoury?  
 

Jim

Hi Jim

I don't know the answer to this. What follows is just a (semi) informed guess.

The C broad arrow (Canada) and the D broad Arrow / D arrow D (Australia) or U broad Arrow (S. Africa), and NZ are all "govt. ownership marks" so my guess is they were applied at a high level in the militaries of the countries when the rifles were supplied by Britain rather than at a unit level or by Britain prior to supply. 

I think they may function as a form of acceptance mark - so I am imagining an agreement/contract to supply Canada with rifles, crates of the rifles show up at the Canadian Army facility/central armoury,  where they are individually inspected and stamped as a form of acceptance / accounting - before being distributed to the units. 

Given the scale, need for speed, massive losses and recycling of weapons on the Western Front I suspect that this degree of care/marking was probably largely a peacetime activity. During the war there was (I believe) a centralized supply system for rifles to all British/Commonwealth units on the Western Front and I doubt at that point weapons were being marked to Canada/Australia etc (likewise no concern given to giving Australian troops Lithgow rifles etc -- a rifle was a rifle was a rifle and as long as armourers had inspected it and it was functional and met all specs it went into the central pool for distribution)

I suspect most of the country ownership marks were either present pre war (not in this case obviously!) or added post war as the various armies/govts took stock and when troops returned back to the home country carrying rifles (and Britain supplied rifles post war as part of wartime agreements)

So - I don't KNOW, but my guess is these marks were applied when the weapons were inspected/accepted by the receiving govt.

Others may know better (there are a number of Australian/NZ/S.African pals on here who can perhaps shed light) 

Chris

[Mattr82]

Some great points Chris. Great input as usual mate!

So this rifle has an eclectic array of markings! As stated above, they're a mixture of military/official and civilian.

I'm not going to regurgitate the info that Chris put up because that answers it well but I will add into the mix with regards to markings and issuing of SMLEs to Commonwealth forces.

I will backtrack a bit and give a background to the use of SMLEs by Canada and the subsequent post-war retention and issuing of SMLEs.

At the end of WW1, Canada took back with it 67,000 rifles. These rifles were rifles that Canadians had actually used in the trenches. In 1920-1921 a further 49,000 Lee Enfield's were sent to Canada under the 'Imperial Ordnance Program'. These rifles were basically for credit for the Ross rifles sent with the CEF and handed in for SMLEs as well as rifles that Canada had paid for in WW1.

At the end of WW1, Australia had handed in all of its rifles to the British rather than take home a small amount as Lithgow production in Australia would assist in the maintaining of a stable amount of rifles. In 1919/1921, 101,000 SMLEs came to Australia to replenish the stocks that the Australian Imperial Force took with them to the Dardanelles and smaller amounts in 1916 and 1917.

The rifles that Australia gained under contract from Britain were marked with a 'War Office Sale Mark'. These are;

Two arrows facing each other (pre Aug 1912)

D with an arrow inside (Aug 1912 to early 1920s)

 

The rifles that went back to Canada in 1918 would not have been marked with Canadian markings when they left France. The marking was done when inventoried into the Canadian ordnance system. Those markings are typically a C with a small arrow inside.

The markings I have noticed that appear on post-WW1 shipments to Canada are the C with the larger arrow like on your rifles. These would have been stamped on at the factory in Britain prior to shipment to Canada. Rifles to be sent to Australia were also marked prior to shipment.

So I would say that your rifle is one of the 49,000 sent post-WW1.

 

Another point I have to add with your rifle which I am sure would add another nice dimension to its story is that the civilian proof stamps (BNP...etc) are post -WW2.

When Canadian forces moved to Britain en mass in 1940/1941, they took thousands of their rifles and other weapon systems with them. As newer models of rifles came online and ready to be issued out to British and Commonwealth forces, the older SMLEs began to be handed in to the British ordnance system for the No.4 rifles.

Having seen a few examples with Canadian markings and post-WW2 civilian proof stamps, I would imagine your rifle is one of the many thousands that went to Britain with the Canadian DIVs during the early parts of WW2. 

A good example of history your rifle. Many thanks for sharing mate.

 

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, Mattr82 said:

 

The markings I have noticed that appear on post-WW1 shipments to Canada are the C with the larger arrow like on your rifles. These would have been stamped on at the factory in Britain prior to shipment to Canada. Rifles to be sent to Australia were also marked prior to shipment.

 

 

What is the basis for this assertion please? (That the factories stamped the ownership marks prior to shipping) - it would be helpful to me in another project I am working on.

I have not been able to find any documentation that supports marking in the factory as opposed to upon delivery.

Chris