Map help: " 'square' 1620/19 b"

[Marian2]

According to his casualty card (attached) Ervin David Shaw of No. 48 Sqn., shot down 9 July 1918 s.e. of Grancourt (Grandcourt), was initially buried "'square' 1620/19b"  (As needed, see:   https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/shaw-e.d )

The burial return (attached) at CWGC for his observer, Tom Walter Smith, indicates that their bodies were found approximately at Map 57d R 16.  (As needed, click the "concentration" image at https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/235389/tom-walter-smith/ )

The general area can be seen here:  http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A69483/-/collection

Is it reasonable to interpret the "16 20 / 19 b" as (very) short hand for Map 57d R 16b 20.19, and to assume that the reference is using 5 yard resolution for the last two figures?  Or am I trying to fit a square peg in a round hole?  

Thanks for any light that you can shed on this!

---Marian 

[WhiteStarLine]

This is a challenging one Marian!  Interpreting incorrectly rendered map references is always subjective, but I can see your logic.  Also, you would normally expect the exhumation reference to be more detailed than square R.16 but all 11 sets of remains are shown in the same 1,000 x 1,000 yard area,

The original IWGC concentration points don't throw any light either.

My personal take is 'plausible' but correlation from another source would be good.  If only the GRU had used the trench map sub grid and ordinates as they usually did.

Cheers, Bill  

[LDT006]

Marian,

this is a German map reference: Grandcourt is at squares 1619 and 1620, see below. 57d.R.16 is just SE of those German map squares.
These locations also match S.E. of Grandcourt from that "B.M. mission report".

Hope this helps,
Luc.

Edit: Map comes from Trenchmapper: Karte der 2.Armee. Miraumont, Sheet: 68, Scale: 1:25,000, Geheim Trenches, railways, Id: m_003800

 

Edited 22 November , 2023 by LDT006

[charlie2]

On the map posted by LDT006 the grid squares are 1000m x 1000m. The square is subdivided into 25 smaller squares each measuring 200m x 200m, these are further subdivided into 4 squares  a, b, c & d each measuring 100m x 100m

Charlie

Edited 22 November , 2023 by charlie2
My bad maths

[LDT006]

Charlie,

thanks, the 1620/19 b map reference should then be at this location which matches with the Burial Return sheet.

[WhiteStarLine]

Luc and Charlie, thanks so much.  I'm not familiar with German map referencing so good to have expertise from both of you.

Cheers, Bill 

[charlie2]

2 hours ago, LDT006 said:

at this location

Luc,

I don‘t agree with the position you have given on the British map, by my reckoning the centre of 1620/19b, which you have correctly marked, is pretty much on the 120 contour line.

Charlie

[LDT006]

1 hour ago, charlie2 said:

is pretty much on the 120 contour line.

Charlie,

the 120 line is not exactly the same on both maps compared with other features,  so I ignored it but used the end of the road to the left on the cross hairs. Having a second look now this is also different.
The location that I marked on the British map is about b.1.4 and it should be b.2.8 ?

[charlie2]

I had noticed the differences in the maps as well, which I think is only to be expected. I think b.2.8. Is the best we can get.

Charlie

[Marian2]

Many thanks to all for the helpful replies.

Does anyone know what the B. M. Mission is/was?  Or the files referred to? 

There is a similar reference on another casualty card (attached).

---Marian   

[charlie2]

7 minutes ago, Marian2 said:

Does anyone know what the B. M. Mission is/was? 

British Military Mission presumably with the army of occupation

Charlie

[Marian2]

You are probably right.  I find references to the British Military Mission in Berlin, and references to their seeking information on P.O.W.s and locating the missing.  But the info is scanty, and, so far, I'm having no luck finding their "files."  

The file numbers don't seem to correspond to TNA file numbers; perhaps they went to the CWGC?  

---Marian 

[charlie2]

16 hours ago, Marian2 said:

British Military Mission in Berlin,

The one in Berlin would make more sense than those in the occupied area. Berlin was the home to one of the Red Cross offices and the Zentral-Nachweise-Bureau of the War Ministry - the office responsible for collating and verifying information on casualties.

Charlie

[LDT006]

There is some information on "the post-Armistice British Military Mission to Berlin" on this page:

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/#unique-identifier22a