Why were foreign observers e.g. German invited to pre-war British army exercises ?

[Simon Cains]

I have been doing a lot of research on the British army exercises ( or manoeuvres) before the war, and I am puzzled why German military observers were invited and welcomed, even as late as September 1913. ( and vice-versa to see exercises in Germany).  Surely this was giving away some secrets regarding equipment, tactics etc ?   Was there any discussion about keeping them out ?   I can think of lots of possible reasons why not, maybe it was a combination of some or all of these :-

• Civilians were able to watch the exercises, so maybe it was fairly easy for Germans to watch if dressed as civilians. 
• Perhaps this was a tradition from the days before it was becoming obvious that Britain and Germany might go to war, so it seemed "impolite" to start treating them as the "enemy".
• Was it hoped that the exercises would be so impressive that a foreign power might think twice before declaring war ?

Towards 1914, the British officers at German manoeuvres were steered away from some of the fighting and more tied up with ceremonial dinners and receptions etc. 

Any facts on this topic would be welcome, thanks everyone.

[Moonraker]

In late September 1909 major exercises involving 50,000 troops took place in an area bounded by Cheltenham, Northampton, Oxford and Salisbury.  Observers from nineteen countries attended. (A tradition in Highworth had it that Germany's Kaiser was present, but this would have been a case of mistaken identity or village gossip.)

In mid-September 1910 some 50,000 troops under the control of the commander-in-chief, Sir John French, took part in manoeuvres in Dorset, Wiltshire, Hampshire and western Sussex. The exercises ended with a set-piece battle which a German observer pronounced 'very pretty indeed. I would rather not say more.' Another foreign observer remarked: 'Your soldiers – oh, yes, they are admirable; but your generals is – pouf'.

 

[Chasemuseum]

The practice of inviting foreign observers was widespread but "facts" as to why this was done and as to what sort of information was maintained as secret during the exercises, I doubt that any quality contemporary documentation is likely to exist.

[Moonraker]

Futile Exercise by Simon Batten (Helion 2018) considers "The British Army's Preparations for War 1902-1914" and has much about manoeuvres in Wiltshire. Pp 34-36 describes arrangements for foreign observers, such as in 1903 when Lieutenant-Colonel Aylmer Haldane (the future general) escorted them to lunch at Bowood House (seat of Lord Lansdowne) and tea at Corsham Park (seat of Lord Methuen). His most difficult task was settling the bill at the Castle and Ball Hotel in Marlborough: "Had to fight with the hotel folk as they tried to stick me but failed".

Colonel Richard Gädke, the German observer, commented of the 1910 manoeuvres: "I got the impression that the British Army has been training to fight on level plains only, and even for that wrongly trained". (On the one hand there was an awareness in Britain that the Plain comprised open land, affording no training in built-up areas; on the other, several commentators a few years later noted the similarity of the Plain to the battlefields of France.) He was not impressed by the aeroplanes that featured, but nor were British generals.

In 1909 Sir Ian Hamilton observed the Saxon army manoeuvres and took part in the German staff discussions afterwards. He was handed a document that condemned cavalry for charging artillery batteries; he was astounded to see it was his own secret report on the October 1908 manoeuvres on Salisbury Plain, which had been acquired, translated and distributed by the German staff! In 1905 he had been the "dean of observers" at the Russo-Japanese war: Wikipedia

On the Periphery of the Russo-Japanese War Part I

 

 

 

[Simon Cains]

3 hours ago, Moonraker said:

Futile Exercise by Simon Batten (Helion 2018) considers "The British Army's Preparations for War 1902-1914" and has much about manoeuvres in Wiltshire. Pp 34-36 describes arrangements for foreign observers, such as in 1903 when Lieutenant-Colonel Aylmer Haldane (the future general) escorted them to lunch at Bowood House (seat of Lord Lansdowne) and tea at Corsham Park (seat of Lord Methuen). His most difficult task was settling the bill at the Castle and Ball Hotel in Marlborough: "Had to fight with the hotel folk as they tried to stick me but failed".

Colonel Richard Gädke, the German observer, commented of the 1910 manoeuvres: "I got the impression that the British Army has been training to fight on level plains only, and even for that wrongly trained". (On the one hand there was an awareness in Britain that the Plain comprised open land, affording no training in built-up areas; on the other, several commentators a few years later noted the similarity of the Plain to the battlefields of France.) He was not impressed by the aeroplanes that featured, but nor were British generals.

In 1909 Sir Ian Hamilton observed the Saxon army manoeuvres and took part in the German staff discussions afterwards. He was handed a document that condemned cavalry for charging artillery batteries; he was astounded to see it was his own secret report on the October 1908 manoeuvres on Salisbury Plain, which had been acquired, translated and distributed by the German staff! In 1905 he had been the "dean of observers" at the Russo-Japanese war: Wikipedia

On the Periphery of the Russo-Japanese War Part I

 

 

 

Hi thanks, yes I have the book, and "All the business of war" about 1913, and tried to research other papers, newspaper accounts etc.  But I haven't come across any discussion about restricting foreign observers in Britain, or concern that they could learn useful information.  I see on p159-160 of Futile exercise it does seem that the Germans tried to restrict British observers at their manoeuvres.

[Moonraker]

I have three postcards showing military attachés at the Netheravon concentration camp of most RFC aircraft and personnel in June 1914.  I would have thought that the latest military aviation technology would have been of interest to m other nations.

(At the time the War Office was permitting the public to photograph aeroplanes, but only from a distance of at least 40 yards and without telephoto lenses. )

[Simon Cains]

Wow, that really is close to the start of the war, but it really did come as a bolt from the blue.  Are those postcards online at all ?  I can find plenty of pictures of that "concentration camp" ( with it's innocent meaning). 

I wonder how good telephoto lenses were in 1914.

Thanks very much.

[Moonraker]

Identification of foreign uniforms by courtesy of GWF members some years ago.

[Simon Cains]

Thanks !

[Glenn J]

Interestingly, the German military attaché to Great Britain in 1914, one Major Martin Renner (presumably the officer pictured at Netheravon above), eventually became a British citizen. Originally a Prussian field artillery officer, he entered the Prussian General Staff on promotion to Hauptmann (captain) on 18 February 1902. He served as the military attaché in Brussels and the Hague from 1906 to 1913, replacing his predecessor in London, Major Roland Ostertag effective 16 June 1913. He served primarily as a General Staff officer in WW1 and also as a divisional artillery commander. He retired with the brevet rank of Generalmajor. Following the war he married a British wife, the daughter of Sir Alexander Kleinwort Bt. and became a career diplomat holding amongst other posts that of ambassador in Athens and Helsinki. He retired in 1932, moved to the UK and acquired British citizenship in January 1939. General Renner died on 16 January 1951 at Petersfield in Hampshire.

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/11/2023 at 15:21, Glenn J said:

Interestingly, the German military attaché to Great Britain in 1914, one Major Martin Renner (presumably the officer pictured at Netheravon above), eventually became a British citizen. Originally a Prussian field artillery officer, he entered the Prussian General Staff on promotion to Hauptmann (captain) on 18 February 1902. He served as the military attaché in Brussels and the Hague from 1906 to 1913, replacing his predecessor in London, Major Roland Ostertag effective 16 June 1913. He served primarily as a General Staff officer in WW1 and also as a divisional artillery commander. He retired with the brevet rank of Generalmajor. Following the war he married a British wife, the daughter of Sir Alexander Kleinwort Bt. and became a career diplomat holding amongst other posts that of ambassador in Athens and Helsinki. He retired in 1932, moved to the UK and acquired British citizenship in January 1939. General Renner died on 16 January 1951 at Petersfield in Hampshire.

Regards

Glenn

Thank you, that’s really rather interesting and I’m curious as to the circumstances of how he met his wife and how difficult the relationship between the two families might have been given the several years slaughter that had just occurred.  Perhaps Sir Alexander Kleinwort (a merchant banker and maritime insurer with deep links in the City of London Corporation##) had German relatives himself**.

## “Kleinwort Benson, investment merchant bankers was formed in 1961 by the merger of two rival companies, Kleinworts Limited run by an Anglo-German family and Robert Benson, Lonsdale and Company Limited, investment bankers.  The First World War could have ruined the firm, but their business as supplier of silver in London saved them from what they lost in acceptances and transactions with Germany. The 1930 banking crisis in Germany also could have been a disaster as the bank’s assets were frozen, but their diverse base saw benefits from the civil war in Spain.  A significant proportion of records of Kleinwort, Sons and Company are in German.”

**Afternote: grandfather = Alexander Frederick Henry Kleinwort BIRTH 18 Nov 1815 Hamburg, Germany.

Edited 23 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m curious as to the circumstances of how he met his wife and how difficult the relationship between the two families might have been given the several years slaughter that had just occurred.

Thank you for the additional comments and these were my thoughts exactly. The lady in question being Miss Sophie Kleinwort. One presumes they met during his time in London in 1913 - 1914?

It must also have been a strange and interesting circumstance having a retired German general officer living in Petersfield especially during WW2!

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Glenn J said:

Thank you for the additional comments and these were my thoughts exactly. The lady in question being Miss Sophie Kleinwort. One presumes they met during his time in London in 1913 - 1914?

It must also have been a strange and interesting circumstance having a retired German general officer living in Petersfield especially during WW2!

Regards

Glenn

Yes it’s such an intriguing story and I wish we could learn more.  I imagine that they might well have formed an attachment and possibly even an ‘understanding’, but they would have had a really fraught time I should think, communicating by letter throughout the war and, as postmarks were easily noticed, I wonder if their mail was intercepted.

There was enormous anti German feeling at various points during the war, often whipped up shamefully by the usual culprits - right wing print media such as the Daily Mail. It must have been very difficult.

The family was very Anglo-German and I rather suspect might have been been one where the children were raised to be bilingual.  This would have been sensible not only socially but as a business strategy too, as all the sons who moved into the family firm engaged in business with Germany.  Such a family would explain how a romantic communication was possible.

Edited 23 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Chasemuseum]

Robert Graves autobiography gives an insight into a wealthy Anglo-German family before and during the war. A relationship that appears to have been relatively common at that era.

 

Still the process is interesting and it would be nice to have more details of this case if it were possible.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said:

Robert Graves autobiography gives an insight into a wealthy Anglo-German family before and during the war. A relationship that appears to have been relatively common at that era.

 

Still the process is interesting and it would be nice to have more details of this case if it were possible.

I’m sure there were a great many Anglo-German families, especially in banking and maritime affairs given the central position of the City of London Corporation and Britain’s status as an island nation, central clearing house and, at the time, premier maritime power.

It was this particular story that seems so interesting to me because of the status and background of the groom rather than the bride.

[Interested]

You might find this, on Gutenberg interesting - it describes the attitude of most of the British towards Germany pre-the Great War.

A scrap of paper : The inner history of German diplomacy and her scheme of | Project Gutenberg

Happy reading...

[Moonraker]

We're wandering a little from the OP's question, but doing so encourages me to mention Baron Hugo von Grundherr who in 1911 rented Elston House, Shrewton (three miles from Lark Hill Camp) on Salisbury Plain as a base for purchasing horses for the German army. He was also an art dealer. The London Gazette  of June 6, 1913 names him as a debtor "lately residing at Elston House in the parish of Orcheston Saint George, Wiltshire, afterwards believed to have resided at the Carlton Hotel, Pall Mall, in the county of London, but whose present address the Petitioning Creditor is unable to ascertain". With the outbreak of war, he is said to have been arrested on suspicion of spying; certainly he was imprisoned for a week and then  spent the war in England, probably as an internee. On May 1, 1918, he arrived as a civilian prisoner of war in Amsterdam.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Moonraker said:

We're wandering a little from the OP's question, but doing so encourages me to mention Baron Hugo von Grundherr who in 1911 rented Elston House, Shrewton (three miles from Lark Hill Camp) on Salisbury Plain as a base for purchasing horses for the German army. He was also an art dealer. The London Gazette  of June 6, 1913 names him as a debtor "lately residing at Elston House in the parish of Orcheston Saint George, Wiltshire, afterwards believed to have resided at the Carlton Hotel, Pall Mall, in the county of London, but whose present address the Petitioning Creditor is unable to ascertain". With the outbreak of war, he is said to have been arrested on suspicion of spying; certainly he was imprisoned for a week and then  spent the war in England, probably as an internee. On May 1, 1918, he arrived as a civilian prisoner of war in Amsterdam.

 

Another quite intriguing story Moonraker and one that epitomises perhaps the mixed fortunes of men declared as aliens after being found in the wrong country at the wrong time.  One wonders why he didn’t flee before war was declared given his earlier role.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 24 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

Thanks, Frogsmile.  I've just re-Googled the Baron (having spent some time researching him earlier this week) and curiously Google has come up with some extra info, including about his internment. I won't give it here as doing so would stray further from the original topic.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

Thanks, Frogsmile.  I've just re-Googled the Baron (having spent some time researching him earlier this week) and curiously Google has come up with some extra info, including about his internment. I won't give it here as doing so would stray further from the original topic.

Yes we have gone a bit off beam.  Perhaps a separate thread if feel there’s enough there. 

[James A Pratt III]

In the US in 1939 the US Army held the Plattsburg Manuvers. In which the German and Japanese Military attaches attended. google search this and see a film clip on youtube

[James A Pratt III]

I think in 1940 the US Army sent a list of questions on combat operations to the German Army!?

[Moonraker]

Another sighting of the Kaiser, this time near Fovant in 1910:

"According to a small unsigned, but dated, note amongst the Simper family papers … Kaiser William reviewed the Army Manoeuvres on Fovant Downs just above the Chalk pit, In July 1910 accompanied by Officers and High officials of Japan and Various other Countries, all In Their official Uniforms, Gold Helmets and Full Regalia and All on Beautiful Black Horses. A Very Hot Sunny day. Airship Beta Flying Over" 

(https://fovanthistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Social-effects-complete-New-coloured-version.pdf)

Which, curiously, I've only just come across. It's an excellent account of the village and camps. Perhaps a German attache in ornate Pickelhaube brought to mind illustrations of the Kaiser?

With Churchill definitely there, what would a film-maker  contrive out of the Kaiser myth: an encounter between two, as that between Captain Brown and von Richthofen in "The Red Baron"? (And Gordon and the Mahdi at Khartoum and several white Americans and their aboriginal enemies in various Westerns.)

 

[Simon Cains]

44 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

Another sighting of the Kaiser, this time near Fovant in 1910:

"According to a small unsigned, but dated, note amongst the Simper family papers … Kaiser William reviewed the Army Manoeuvres on Fovant Downs just above the Chalk pit, In July 1910 accompanied by Officers and High officials of Japan and Various other Countries, all In Their official Uniforms, Gold Helmets and Full Regalia and All on Beautiful Black Horses. A Very Hot Sunny day. Airship Beta Flying Over" 

(https://fovanthistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Social-effects-complete-New-coloured-version.pdf)

Which, curiously, I've only just come across. It's an excellent account of the village and camps. Perhaps a German attache in ornate Pickelhaube brought to mind illustrations of the Kaiser?

With Churchill definitely there, what would a film-maker  contrive out of the Kaiser myth: an encounter between two, as that between Captain Brown and von Richthofen in "The Red Baron"? (And Gordon and the Mahdi at Khartoum and several white Americans and their aboriginal enemies in various Westerns.)

 

Hi, thanks for that.  The main annual manoeuvres in 1910 seemed to be in August/September as usual.  I can't see any newspaper report from 1910 mentioning the Kaiser at exercises.  But certainly this splendid photo from the 1903 exercise shows a German military representative who could easily be mistaken for the Kaiser ! 

[Moonraker]

Not an attache, but in 1914 a German officer came to Hampshire to collect a Sopwith flying boat. Its test pilot, Howard Pixton, was to fly him in the plane around Southampton Water to ensure he was completely satisfied. The CO of Calshot Naval Air Station suggested that they should not fly too near the station. "Why ever not? There's nothing to see," asked Pixton. "That's why," was the reply.

From Howard Pixton, "ghosted" by Stella Pixton, Pen & Sword 2014.

(Howard also notes how the last peacetime issue of The Aeroplane magazine had pictures of German pilots holding the world height and duration flying records captioned "Our Betters".)