Black Posted 18 November , 2023 Share Posted 18 November , 2023 Hello Forum members, I haven't posted here for a while, so I'm just catching up with a number of topics. The purpose of this post is to seek some information on bits and pieces associated with a Sam Browne belt I have been asked to restore. This particular belt was allegedly worn by an infantry officer during the 1914-1918 period, so its manufacture date is therefore most probably pre-1914. It has a number of unusual accessories that I need identified. I will put up a pic of the whole belt and also of the bits that need identification. 1. Sword Frog. This is not what I would normally associate with an infantry officer's belt rig. The frog itself is larger than a normal infantry sword frog. This one has a length of 7 inches (less straps) and at its widest point is 5.5 inches. Also, what is the purpose of the small half-inch wide strap with buckle below the brass stud? 2. Sword Strap. I understand from another post on this Forum that this is a sword strap? These were used to put around the sword hilt via the frog to stop it moving around while mounted. The strap is 0.5 inch wide, 21.5 inches long and has a loop at the squared off end and three stud holes at the pointed end. 3. Rectangular Leather Piece. This piece has me baffled. This seems to be some sort of insert piece for the frog? The rectangle is 4 inches wide at the top, 3 inches wide at the bottom and the two sides are 2 inches each. The strap at the top id 0.5 inches wide and 6.5 inches long from the top of the rectangle with one stud hole at the pointed end. Any comments or clarification from anyone more familiar with this equipment than me would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatww1pigeon Posted 18 November , 2023 Share Posted 18 November , 2023 I have a similar Sam Browne belt in my possession, and although without most of your accessories it is also around the 1914-18 era. As for the sword frog, if it is larger than most than it could be a possibility that this piece is custom made. I would agree with what the sword strap is, but of course others may have different ideas so keep an open mind. I haven’t really seen anything like your rectangular piece. My only thought is that it is an extra piece that is available to be sewn on the belt when needed. Perhaps it would fit inside of the sword frog while the strap part goes through the ring? Or I’m sure it could be sewn onto another part of the belt as well. This could reinforce the thought that it is custom made, since this is very unique. Any markings anywhere? Just some thoughts, Elliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Back in the distant past, when the "Disposal Stores" here regularly had lots of WW1 material (and I was chided by other collectors for being interested in WW1 material as there was so much about and so much was in disposal stores). Kings on George St at Central in Sydney had a cardboard carton of sword frogs, mostly WW1 dated, by UK manufacturers. There were several large ones amongst the batch. Being a student at the time, in only bought one standard size frog. They were terribly expensive, about $4 or GBP1.50 at the time, but I wanted one to put with the P1896 VR sword that I had picked up for $10 a few weeks before. No idea why the large size existed, but as all Sam-Brownes and sword frogs at the time were private purchase, a degree of variation was to be expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 I should add, that I had a couple of school friends go to Duntroon. They were issued their Sam-Browne, but apparently the cadets were always on the lookout for really good condition WW1 examples to replace their issue ones, as these looked better and were easier to keep the brass fittings polished to the required standard (the quality of the issue examples in the 1970s was pretty rough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Posted 19 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Thanks to Thatww1pigeon and Chasemuseum for your responses. I'm thinking that the frog is for a larger sword than the standard infantry officer's sword, perhaps a turn of century cavalry sabre, but that's yet to be proven. As for that strange rectangular leather piece, I'm still baffled and hoping someone out there might come up with a clue. Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chasemuseum said: I should add, that I had a couple of school friends go to Duntroon. They were issued their Sam-Browne, but apparently the cadets were always on the lookout for really good condition WW1 examples to replace their issue ones, as these looked better and were easier to keep the brass fittings polished to the required standard (the quality of the issue examples in the 1970s was pretty rough). Sorry for the slight thread hijacking, but I was rather under the impression that Duntroon Cadets had to pay to 'procure' their Sam-Brownes.? Zidane. Edited 19 November , 2023 by tankengine888 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Posted 19 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Hi Tankengine888, Yes, I wasn't going to give too much away, but after graduating from said institution in the mid-1970s I had to pay for my own Sam Browne. They were definitely not issued. My infantry sword was generously donated by my family to recognise my achievement of getting through four years of teeth-grinding institutionalism. The rectangular leather piece posted earlier still baffles me... Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Hello Black, The only source of the private purchase Sam Browne was from something I overheard at cadets one night so I was very unsure if the issuing of a Sam Browne was actually a thing. I wonder if the rectangle thing has something to do with the sword frog, like how Elliott has suggested. I'm slightly ignorant as to how the Sam Browne is put together, but is the long piece in the last picture for the incomplete side of the Sam Browne? Zidane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Hi Black As I was not a cadet, I accept your advice without question. My two friends both asked me to be on the lookout for nice Sam Brownes for them to use personally or for them to sell to their friends. I sent several down there over a couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Posted 19 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Hi again, For tankengine888: I have no idea how the long thin strap works. I'll have to drag my own sword out of storage and put it all together with the belt and frog to see how that works by threading it through the sword hilt. I've never seen it used, so maybe someone out there has a pic or a diagram that might help. For Chasemuseum: Yes, they were interesting times. I also remember Kings Disposals down there in George Street - a militaria collectors' paradise, although I don't think they exist any more as a trading company. I still have my original SB belt, highly polished, but I think it must have shrunk in the cupboard... Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 (edited) Hello Black, I may have not stated it correctly. Proper words come to my head now; I believe the long rectangle thing with the loop is for the incomplete cross strap. I was under the impression that your thought else. Sorry if I caused confusion or am misleading. Zidane. Edit: rereading deduces I need to pay more attention; it is a sword strap as Black has said and way too short for a cross-strap. Edited 19 November , 2023 by tankengine888 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Posted 19 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Roger that! I'll see how my experiment goes with my own equipment in the next few days and report bac. Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 1 minute ago, Black said: Roger that! I'll see how my experiment goes with my own equipment in the next few days and report bac. Black I edited my malarky, I'm all over the place at the moment with Year 11! I'd be correct that the thing you refer to as the sword strap would be the 'P' shaped piece of leather..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Posted 19 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2023 Yes, that's the one. It's almost 22 inches long and difficult to get a good photograph. As for that other piece, perhaps some sort of insert as suggested on this thread. Black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 On 19/11/2023 at 14:40, Black said: As for that strange rectangular leather piece, I'm still baffled and hoping someone out there might come up with a clue. Black I think it was explained in your previous query https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/189790-restoring-a-sam-browne-belt/ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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