Ident of a gun on a Turkish gunboat

[CharlieLII]

Had a request for an identification of a gun on the Turkish gunboat Sultanhiser taken in 1915.

The writing on the image seems to make reference to "AE 2" - an Australian submarine that penetrated the Dardenelles 

before the April 1915 landings. The AE 2 was eventually scuttled and it's still on the seabed.

Regards,

Charlie

[michaeldr]

It's probably a Hotchkiss 1-pdr

edit to add; above confirmed by Jane's and in The Ottoman Steam Navy by Langensiepen & Güleryüz who give the alternative description, 37mm QF

Edited 17 November , 2023 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

2 hours ago, CharlieLII said:

The writing on the image seems to make reference to "AE 2" - an Australian submarine that penetrated the Dardenelles 

before the April 1915 landings. The AE 2 was eventually scuttled and it's still on the seabed.

This gun of the Sultan-Hisar hit the AE2 near the engine room, forcing the submarine's commander to scuttle his ship.  After abandoning their ship the AE2's crew were taken on board the Sultan-Hisar as PoWs. 

The same picture of the gun appears in Echoes From the Deep - wrecks of the Dardanelles Campaign by Kolay, Taktak, Karakaş & Atabey

 

Edited 17 November , 2023 by michaeldr

[CharlieLII]

Thank you for the prompt and comprehensive answer.

Regards,

Charlie

[Chasemuseum]

Would suggest a 2-pounder or 37mm rather than 1-pounder. Just by the bulk of the barrel.

[Chasemuseum]

My error, 3-pr

 

see handbook on the landservice model here

https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE5499261&mode=browse

[Chasemuseum]

The 6-pr Hotchkiss for comparison

 

[michaeldr]

There's some more on the Sultan-Hisar here Torpedo boat Sultanhisar.pdf including “Defensive weaponry comprised two 1.46- inch (37-millimetre) Hotchkiss quick-firing (QF) guns mounted on the weather deck to either side of Sultanhisar’s conning tower” and another photograph of the gun from a different angle

 

[Holger Kotthaus]

Because the topic title fits exactly, I'm adding a new question here about another
unknown gun on an Ottoman gun boat.

This is the somewhat ancient looking gun on the left side of the photo below. But at
least it seems to be a breech loader. Any idea?

(Looks like a Welin breech block by: de Bange, Nordenfeld, Bofors or Elswick and
it doesn't seem to be a 37mm QF like on page 167 of the source mentioned below?)

 

ORIGINAL SOURCES:
The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 55 & 166/167
https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up

From a Krupp arms catalog from 1892:
http://nek.istanbul.edu.tr:4444/ekos/FOTOGRAF/91186---0039.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_cm_S-Bts_K_L/21#/media

More details are known about the gun, which can also be seen in the background
on the right. It is a 6 cm, so-called boat landing gun, L/21 from Krupp M. 1891 on
a (M.P.L.) Navy mount. The gun and crew come from the "SMS Goeben" / Yavuz
Sultan Selim.

In 1915, Lieutenant Commander Oskar Engelking and another 6 men from the
Marine Special Command set off with the 6-cm gun from the Bosborus towards
Enseli (Bandar-e Anzali) on the Caspian Sea! Due to the British advance on the
Euphrates and Tigris, the artillery and crew were diverted to Mesopotamia and
ordered to Baghdad on the River-Gunboat "DOGAN" (DOGHAN) of the Turkish-
German Tigris-River-Flotilla.

Regards Holger

 

 

Edited 29 November , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus

[Spaceman]

My first instinct is to say this is some form of a Whitworth rifled breech loading gun. Invented around 1855, this type of gun used an end cap to close the breech that screwed on to an external thread on the rear of the gun rotated using the handle on the rear. The cap was supported by a hinged carrier that allowed it to be swung out of the way once unscrewed. In field gun form, the Whitworth breech loading gun was used by the Confederates in small numbers during the American Civil War but was not widely adopted by other countries. 

[Holger Kotthaus]

14 hours ago, Spaceman said:

My first instinct is to say this is some form of a Whitworth rifled breech loading gun. Invented around 1855, this type of gun used an end cap to close the breech that screwed on to an external thread on the rear of the gun rotated using the handle on the rear. The cap was supported by a hinged carrier that allowed it to be swung out of the way once unscrewed. In field gun form, the Whitworth breech loading gun was used by the Confederates in small numbers during the American Civil War but was not widely adopted by other countries. 

Hello Spaceman

Thanks for your reference. I think you solfe this puzzle.
US Civil-War; - Withworth; - I've heard of both before, but didn't suspect it..

This wing closure was only available on Armstring and Withworth. But it appears to
be the very rare Whitworth 1.5- or 2.75-inch/3-Pounder Breechloading Rifled Cannon
(Whitworth Polygonal Rifling, 6-grooves, tin cartridge case, solid steel projectile)

The article below explains some details about the gun. However, only as a field gun.

A barrel version on navy mount is not mentioned.

Original Source:
Presentation for Chesapeake Chapter, Company of Military Historians,
“A Few Guns and Their Stories” By John Morris, Page 2 & 47-67
https://springfieldarsenal.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/cmh-presentation-12-1-12r3.pdf

Regards Holger

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus

[Spaceman]

6 minutes ago, Holger Kotthaus said:

Hello Spaceman

Thanks for your reference. I think you solfe this puzzle.
US Civil-War; - Withworth; - I've heard of both before, but didn't suspect it..

This wing closure was only available on Armstring and Withworth. But it appears to
be the very rare Whitworth 1.5- or 2.75-inch/3-Pounder Breechloading Rifled Cannon
(Whitworth Polygonal Rifling, 6-grooves, tin cartridge case, solid steel projectile)

The article below explains some details about the gun. However, only as a field gun.

A barrel version on navy mount is not mentioned.

Original Source:
Presentation for Chesapeake Chapter, Company of Military Historians,
“A Few Guns and Their Stories” By John Morris, Page 2 & 47-67
https://springfieldarsenal.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/cmh-presentation-12-1-12r3.pdf

Regards Holger

 

 

 

 

I'm not an expert on 19th Century Ottoman naval vessels but I know many were built in foreign yards including Great Britain. In the early 1860's, both Whitworth and Armstrong in GB developed rifles breech loaders (RBL) but Britain chose to adopt the Armstrong RBL guns rather than the Whitworth version partly because its hexagonal rifling and special shells were much more expensive to manufacture. The fact that WG Armstrong was working for the War Office at the time may also have played a part in the decision! However, for an export naval vessel, the Customer would have been free to choose which type of ordnance he wanted to use and, in this case, might well have chosen Whitworth RBL guns. Their big advantage of the Whitworth RBL guns was their exceptional accuracy and range compared with other types of ordnance.