One for Muerrisch

[mark holden]

A photo I came across whilst sorting through albums. A group of hardy Senior Non Commissioned Officers many veterans of South Africa. I suspect the photo is circa 1903-1910 in date.

[Muerrisch]

Superb thank you. I will let others better qualified provide analysis. The image quality is incredible.

[FROGSMILE]

On 12/11/2023 at 18:18, mark holden said:

A photo I came across whilst sorting through albums. A group of hardy Senior Non Commissioned Officers many veterans of South Africa. I suspect the photo is circa 1903-1910 in date.

Fantastic photo Mark, thank you for sharing such a wonderful image.

Rear row left to right Lancashire Fusiliers, Royal Warwickshire Regiment and [edit] 19th (Queen Alexandra’s Own Royal) Hussars.

Centre row L to R, South Wales Borderers, Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment, [edit] Dorsetshire Regiment, 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, Connaught Rangers, PWO West Yorkshire Regiment and Northumberland Fusiliers.

Front row L to R, School of Musketry (Quarter-Master-Sergeant-Instructor), Cheshire Regiment, School of Musketry (Sergeant-Major-Instructor), Rifle Brigade, and School of Musketry (Quarter-Master-Sergeant-Instructor).

With the exception of the two SofM QMSIs, the entire group are warrant officers and so sergeant majors of their infantry battalions/cavalry regiments (RSMs in modern terms).  It’s quite an august gathering and the presence of no less than three School of Musketry staff suggests to me that it was probably a conference connected with musketry.  One of the QMSIs is equipped with service issue binoculars in a leather case, suggesting the need for imminent observation.

All of the warrant officers (but not the QMSIs) are wearing a warrant officers version of the 1902 serge service dress, which was cut from a finer cloth and made bespoke within battalion’s by unit master tailors.  This was a privilege laid down in clothing regulations but reserved specifically to the few select ranks and appointments authorised for “First Class Clothing”**.  As warrant officers they were the only other ranks to wear collar badges specifically in accordance with the practice of their regimental officers.

I would date the photo to around 1907-08 as the two QMSI appear to have fixed shoulder straps and metal titles.

**however, notice that because they are made up individually in battalions there are some variations.  Most have mitred cuffs, but at least one, the SWB WO, has a cuff ring of drab worsted herringbone tape of the same type used to frame officers cuff rank, a feature that I’ve seen before (see photo below), but which was not universal (it’s unclear how this distinction was introduced, but it clearly wasn’t an individual’s whim).  Most have scalloped flaps on their breast pockets, but one or two do not.  The former all have sewn in waist bands.  At least two have the standard pattern 02 SD, with shoulder patches, but made up using the finer quality (smoother and less coarse) serge authorised for First Class.

NB.  Much of the officers service dress design of 1902 was modelled on similar khaki drill and blue patrols that preceded it and on which rank was positioned on the shoulder straps and cuffs fitted with mitres.  As rank was positioned on cuffs on the new serge SD and cuffs therefore without mitres, it seems likely that the warrant officers were initially intended to have the ring of chevron lace, but then switched to the mitres.  This is all conjecture of course but it has an appealing logic.  Ironically officers followed the same course when their rank increasingly became switched from cuffs to shoulder straps as a personal preference, and regardless of the regulations at the time.

 

Edited 18 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Fantastic photo.  Rear row left to right Lancashire Fusiliers, Royal Warwickshire Regiment and APOWO Yorkshire Regiment.

Centre row L to R, South Wales Borderers, Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment, Essex Regiment, Worcestershire Regiment (or 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards?), Connaught Rangers, PWO West Yorkshire Regiment and Northumberland Fusiliers.

Front row L to R, School of Musketry (Quarter-Master-Sergeant-Instructor), Cheshire Regiment, School of Musketry (Sergeant-Major-Instructor), Rifle Brigade, and School of Musketry (Quarter-Master-Sergeant-Instructor).

With the exception of the two SofM QMSIs, the entire group are infantry warrant officers and so sergeant majors of their battalions (RSMs in modern terms).  It’s quite an august gathering and the presence of no less than three School of Musketry staff suggests to me that it was probably a conference connected with musketry.

All of the warrant officers (but not the QMSIs) are wearing the warrant officers version of the 1902 serge service dress, which was cut from a finer cloth and made bespoke within battalion’s by unit master tailors.  This was a privilege laid down in clothing regulations but reserved only to the few select ranks and appointments authorised for “First Class Clothing”**.  As warrant officers they were the only other ranks to wear collar badges specifically in accordance with the practice of their regimental officers.

I would date the photo to around 1907-08 as the two QMSI appear to have fixed shoulder straps and metal titles.

Mark, thank you for sharing such a wonderful photograph.

**however, notice that because they are made up in battalions there are some variations.  Most have mitred cuffs, but at least one, the SWB WO, has a cuff ring of herringbone bone tape of the same type used to create officers cuff rank, a feature that I’ve seen before (see photo below), but which was not universal (it’s unclear how this distinction was introduced, but it clearly wasn’t an individual’s whim).  Most have scalloped flaps on their breast pockets, but one or two do not.  The former all have sewn in waist bands.  At least two have the standard pattern 02 SD, with shoulder patches, but made up using the finer quality (smoother and less coarse) serge authorised for First Class.

 

Centre row, third from left, Dorsetshire Regiment, not Essex Regiment.        Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Centre row, third from left, Dorsetshire Regiment, not Essex Regiment.        Pete.

Thanks Pete.  What do you make of that star badge that I’m not sure about?  Could it be Bedfordshire, I can’t see the cross, but there’s an unusual scroll shape at or near the base?

Edited 13 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Pete.  What do you make of that star badge that I’m not sure about?  Could it be Bedfordshire?

4th Dragoon Guards to my eyes and the man far right at the rear I think is 19th Hussars.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

4th Dragoon Guards to my eyes and the man far right at the rear I think is 19th Hussars.      Pete.

Thank you that’s brilliant.  I was wondering about the Dannebrog cross, it seemed too small, but it wasn’t until I saw what could be 4th RIDG that I considered there might be cavalry there.

Edited 13 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

4th Dragoon Guards to my eyes and the man far right at the rear I think is 19th Hussars.      Pete.

I’m a bit suspicious of the West Yorks man now.  There’s no collar badges so could be 3rd King’s Own Hussars.  What do you think?  I’m restricted to phone screen, but I think the scroll tips are going outwards.

Edited 13 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m a bit suspicious of the West Yorks man now.  There’s no collar badges so could be 3rd King’s Own Hussars.  What do you think?  I’m restricted to phone screen, but I think the scroll tips are going outwards.

Definitely West Yorkshire Regiment.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Definitely West Yorkshire Regiment.      Pete.

Job done then, many thanks.