Charles Albert Brooks, Pension Ledger / Index Card - Help Required

[Duffer]

Hi

Thru a free / limited subscription of ForcesWarRecords.com I have located the attached card listed under 'Pension Ledgers & Index Cards (1914-1923)' for my wife's grandfather Charles Albert Brooks.

There are several numbers on the card that I do not recognize ...can anyone help me?

1. "8486" at the top of the card
2. "63253" under his service number
3. "Chelsea HMGC/13607"
4. "11/M/319024"
5. "Rec 12/05/1920"
6. "Rejected"

Summary of what I already currently know:

• Born 15-Jan-1899, Bredhurst, Kent
• Machine Gun Corp, reg #130626 unit 23 F Res Battn. Rank Gunner. Initial training completed with 2nd Royal West Surrey (The Queens)
• Reg #130626 thought to have been first used when forceably transferred to the MGC.
• 27May1918 German captive, Dulmen POW camp
• 02Dec1918 Repatriation of British POWs arriving in Hull onboard SS Stockport
• 24Apr1920 Discharged from MMG.
• Served in Northern Ireland at some stage (presumably after WW1)
• During WW2 worked at Upnor explosives filling factory, Kent supporting submarines

Cheers ColinG

 

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Duffer said:

Reg #130626 thought to have been first used when forceably transferred to the MGC.

On 23/12/17 he would have been Compulsorily (rather than forcibly) transferred from the Queen's (perhaps 3rd not 2nd Bn?) to the MGC and that number issued then.

Edited 11 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Duffer said:

"63253

That would have been his previous number, most probably Queens.

He would have had yet a previous number beginning TR..

Edited 11 November , 2023 by charlie962

[Dirty Harry]

The 11/m/319024 refers to his pension ledger so in theory u should have another pension card that will give a lot of details, hopefully.

The 11 is the area, in this case east/south east of England as to where they were living at the time so should narrow things done a bit.

 

rejected means his application for a pension was rejected. The army could be a bit stingy.

[Duffer]

30 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

On 23/12/17 he would have been Compulsorily (rather than forcibly) transferred from the Queen's (perhaps 3rd not 2nd Bn?) to the MGC and that number issued then.

Thank you...you are quite correct. Thank you Colin

26 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

That would have been his previous number, most probably Queens.

He would have had yet a previous number beginning TR..

Very interesting thank you

[Duffer]

5 minutes ago, Dirty Harry said:

The 11/m/319024 refers to his pension ledger so in theory u should have another pension card that will give a lot of details, hopefully.

The 11 is the area, in this case east/south east of England as to where they were living at the time so should narrow things done a bit.

 

rejected means his application for a pension was rejected. The army could be a bit stingy.

Very helpful. Thank you. I haven't yet found another card. How stingy as you say.

[charlie962]

More thoughts:

I think (from looking at surviving records from men transferred to the MGC at the same time) that he was previously posted to the 3rd Queen's c 9/11/17 ie only 6 weeks before transfer to MGC. With the MGC he probably was posted to 6th (Reserve) Bn at Grantham for training.

He probably went to France in the last two weeks of March 1918, just as the Germans launched their Spring Offensive, Operation Michael.

I cannot say to which MGC battalion he would have been posted in France. 

You've already identified the ICRC pow page I think.

This shows a list for Dulmen Camp c July 1918. He is shown as MGC 'D' company (is that a D?) And taken at Craon(n)e 27/5/18 and previously held at Laon. Laon looks to have been a Collecting camp near Soissons. See this link.

https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/wwi_pow_camps/192/

You could look at other MGC men on the preceding/succeeding pages on ICRC who were taken same date/place to see if they have surviving records that narrow down MGC Bn? 

Charlie

Edited 12 November , 2023 by charlie962
Spelling

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

You could look at other MGC men on the preceding/succeeding pages on ICRC who were taken same date/place to see if they have surviving records that narrow down MGC Bn?

For example

Ernest Bousfield 98873 has the same D company and date/place captured. He subsequently died but cwgc have his battalion as 50 Bn. This fits in the range of battalion possibilities I'd noted in other records so could be worth pursuing.

 

Richard Joseph Cane 136081 again D company and same date/place of capture. But I've not found his battalion! Can you? 

James Carmichael 130274 has another ICRC record identifying him as D company 50 Bn MGC. This is looking interesting.

 

Joseph Douglas 23987 was A rather than F company but has a British Red Cross enquiry suggesting he was 50th Bn.

Leo Hamilton has an ICRC card saying 150 but I suspect a possible typo and could be 50 ? Either that or he was using his old MGC company no 150 which became part of 50 Bn MGC in March 1918 (becoming B coy)

 

And the last one I found with same date/place of capture is:

 

Arthur J Jeary 53765 who has a BRC enquiry showing he was C Company 50 Bn.

 

To me all points to Brooks being D company of 50th Bn MGC.

Their war diary is here at National Archived free to download if you register.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354697

Let us know what it says please. I doubt it mentions individuals but at least should give the context.

Charlie

Edited 12 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Well, after all that I find that there is a card for Charles Brooks and there is the magic number 50 as well as the D.

Easy to miss as ICRC have two cards squashed together.

Good to know my logic worked and it does give you several others to search and see if they sent stories home?

Edited 12 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

For completeness here's Brooks's second ICRC card confirming Battalion. He had moved from Dulmen to Munster III.

[Duffer]

18 hours ago, charlie962 said:

More thoughts:

I think (from looking at surviving records from men transferred to the MGC at the same time) that he was previously posted to the 3rd Queen's c 9/11/17 ie only 6 weeks before transfer to MGC. With the MGC he probably was posted to 6th (Reserve) Bn at Grantham for training.

He probably went to France in the last two weeks of March 1918, just as the Germans launched their Spring Offensive, Operation Michael.

I cannot say to which MGC battalion he would have been posted in France. 

You've already identified the ICRC pow page I think.

This shows a list for Dulmen Camp c July 1918. He is shown as MGC 'D' company (is that a D?) And taken at Craon(n)e 27/5/18 and previously held at Laon. Laon looks to have been a Collecting camp near Soissons. See this link.

https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/wwi_pow_camps/192/

You could look at other MGC men on the preceding/succeeding pages on ICRC who were taken same date/place to see if they have surviving records that narrow down MGC Bn? 

Charlie

Thank you I appreciate your assistance and time spent helping

Colin

[Duffer]

17 hours ago, charlie962 said:

For example

Ernest Bousfield 98873 has the same D company and date/place captured. He subsequently died but cwgc have his battalion as 50 Bn. This fits in the range of battalion possibilities I'd noted in other records so could be worth pursuing.

 

Richard Joseph Cane 136081 again D company and same date/place of capture. But I've not found his battalion! Can you? 

James Carmichael 130274 has another ICRC record identifying him as D company 50 Bn MGC. This is looking interesting.

 

Joseph Douglas 23987 was A rather than F company but has a British Red Cross enquiry suggesting he was 50th Bn.

Leo Hamilton has an ICRC card saying 150 but I suspect a possible typo and could be 50 ? Either that or he was using his old MGC company no 150 which became part of 50 Bn MGC in March 1918 (becoming B coy)

 

And the last one I found with same date/place of capture is:

 

Arthur J Jeary 53765 who has a BRC enquiry showing he was C Company 50 Bn.

 

To me all points to Brooks being D company of 50th Bn MGC.

Their war diary is here at National Archived free to download if you register.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354697

Let us know what it says please. I doubt it mentions individuals but at least should give the context.

Charlie

Thank you I will take a look over the next couple of days

Very much appreciated

Colin

[Duffer]

Just to put a face to this enquiry ...here is Charles

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

For completeness here's Brooks's second ICRC card confirming Battalion. He had moved from Dulmen to Munster III.

Thank you, that's excellent

[charlie962]

15 minutes ago, Duffer said:

put a face to this enquiry

Thank you for sharing these. Makes all the difference.

[Duffer]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Thank you for sharing these. Makes all the difference.

He was a lovely chap, always jolly, but he only spoke about the war on one occasion that I know off. Apparently when his brother helped to unload the Pows he didn't recognise his own brother such was his weight loss. I have also heard that he served in Ireland but I'm not sure when.

[Duffer]

On 12/11/2023 at 01:32, charlie962 said:

For example

Ernest Bousfield 98873 has the same D company and date/place captured. He subsequently died but cwgc have his battalion as 50 Bn. This fits in the range of battalion possibilities I'd noted in other records so could be worth pursuing.

 

Richard Joseph Cane 136081 again D company and same date/place of capture. But I've not found his battalion! Can you? 

James Carmichael 130274 has another ICRC record identifying him as D company 50 Bn MGC. This is looking interesting.

 

Joseph Douglas 23987 was A rather than F company but has a British Red Cross enquiry suggesting he was 50th Bn.

Leo Hamilton has an ICRC card saying 150 but I suspect a possible typo and could be 50 ? Either that or he was using his old MGC company no 150 which became part of 50 Bn MGC in March 1918 (becoming B coy)

 

And the last one I found with same date/place of capture is:

 

Arthur J Jeary 53765 who has a BRC enquiry showing he was C Company 50 Bn.

 

To me all points to Brooks being D company of 50th Bn MGC.

Their war diary is here at National Archived free to download if you register.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354697

Let us know what it says please. I doubt it mentions individuals but at least should give the context.

Charlie

Summary of info plus extracts from the 50th Bn MGC War Diary as requested ...our Charles Brooks had previously had very rough experiences in the Somme Offensive in March 1918, and then the Fourth Battle of Ypres (Lys) (where the Division suffered very heavy losses), before moving to the Third Battle of Aisne ( Believed to be a quieter section of the front at that time! ...an apparent haven of tranquillity for rest and recuperation). At Aisne Charles was located at Craonne, north-west of Reims. D Coy received orders to cross Maizy bridge, over the river Aisne, and move into the left Sub-sector ...just south of Chemin des Dames Ridge held by the Germans (who had the height advantage). The defensive line was described as having little in defence in depth. The Allied forces considered this a very risky French strategy as once breached it would leave the remaining defence in danger of being outflanked and surrounded. "At 1am on the 27th May a very heavy German bombardment was launched on the whole of Croanne point followed by an attack in great strength". The 27th May marked the start of the German Spring Offensive in the Aisne area and it is on this day that Charles was captured prisoner. I have read that the Allies found it extremely difficult to stop the attack and lost all of their guns and most of the men were captured when surrounded early in the day. By the evening the 50th Division had lost 5,106 officers and men, killed wounded and missing (mostly captured). The Germans had successfully pushed the Allies back across the River Aisne and much further south. By the 30th May 1918 the Germans had captured 50,000 soldiers and 800 guns and were within 55 miles of Paris by the 3rd June. Apparently it was the greatest advance in a single day on the western front since 1914. Due to the intensity of the offensive the war diary for the 27th - 29th May is included as an Appendix VI as it could not be completed until the 2nd June. I think our Charles was somewhat lucky to be captured alive!

[Duffer]

Possibly where Charles was held after being captured.

Footer "French, English and American from our great offensive Soiffons-Reims in the citadel of Laon" ...or something similar

Thanks for all your kind help and advice.

Colin 'Duffer'

[charlie962]

Thanks for the summary. There's an old long running thread on the period here

And a map posted by the late member Croonaert that shows the first day.

 

[Matlock1418]

On 11/11/2023 at 22:30, Dirty Harry said:

The 11/m/319024 refers to his pension ledger so in theory u should have another pension card that will give a lot of details, hopefully.

The 11 is the area, in this case east/south east of England as to where they were living at the time so should narrow things done a bit.

 

rejected means his application for a pension was rejected. The army could be a bit stingy.

On 11/11/2023 at 22:36, Duffer said:

I haven't yet found another card. How stingy as you say.

A couple of small points:

11/M/319024 is a claim reference which would normally refer to/coming from a pension ledger page [which may or may not have had a bit more information on its front and possible the rear if the claim continued for any great length of time] and there likely would have been an awards file ... however the ledger of Region 11 for the Eastern/Metropolitan London/South East, does not seem to have survived and any awards file likely deliberately destroyed once its use was ended [as most were].

Pensions were determined by the Ministry of Pensions - and in order to get an award there had to be some temporary or permanent disability/impairment at the time of claim and following. Awards generally made by the MoP may not seem have been huge but were intended to bridge the gap between what a man could normally be expected to earn if not disabled and what he actually could normally earn given his degree of disability.  They were intended as a bridge into work and self-support so far as was possible.  Even if a man had been wounded and if he had later fully recovered then it was not claimable. If no disability then no award and thus rejection [The 8486 at the top of this pension index card was the claim Rejection number - presumably there would likely have been another ledger or such record of such rejection numbers].  Not necessarily stinginess - Though not particularly generous this was considered fiscal prudence of national/tax-payers monies. Plus ca change

M

Edited 18 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

On 11/11/2023 at 21:02, Duffer said:

"Chelsea HMGC/13607"

Just for completeness ... this Chelsea H MGC/13607 was his early Chelsea Hospital pension claim reference - replaced by the later Ministry of Pensions' version 11/M/11/M/319024 mentioned above/alongside it on the PIC

Early in the war the CH [for the Army] was responsible for pensions but due to the number of claims the MoPs took over in 1917 and modified/modernised the system and references

M

Edited 17 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Duffer]

Thank you for the detailed pension information...I wasn't expecting that ...very grateful and appreciated.

[Matlock1418]

On 11/11/2023 at 21:02, Duffer said:

"Rec 12/05/1920"

For more completeness I suppose I should just confirm Rec. 12.5.20 would have been the received/receipt date for the claim, shortly after his discharge - that simple little card just keeps on giving!

20 hours ago, Duffer said:

Thank you for the detailed pension information...I wasn't expecting that ...very grateful and appreciated.

You are most welcome. 

Pensions might seem a potentially dry topic but they could have a significant effect on men's futures and/or their dependants - and in other cases often revealing other previously unknown details = We must really thank WFA for saving these records for the nation.

All the best.

M

Edited 18 November , 2023 by Matlock1418