Some of the most far gone photographs that I have ever saved from the dustman.

[high wood]

A recent purchase, which despite being in a very sorry state, I thought were worth saving. They came from a recent house clearance and were found in an outside building, clearly faded and water damaged.

[high wood]

Luckily, there are more than one example of several of the photographs. Most are separated from their card mounts, and some are very faded. I can alter the contrast and bring out some of the detail.

[high wood]

I had thought that there might be a family connection between those depicted in the photographs and that I would be able to identify the officers from the four regiments depicted, namely, Cheshire Regiment, Manchester Regiment, Lincolnshire Regiment and Royal Army Medical Corps.

I have found the identity of the Cheshire Regiment officer but I am struggling to find the others.

[FROGSMILE]

Three regiments shown, Manchester, Lincolnshire and Cheshire (I agree).  Two of them appear to be brothers perhaps.  The Manchester fellow is a Territorial and has the regulation ‘T’ beneath his collar badges accordingly.

In the photo with overcoats they are wearing ‘British Warms’ (aka ‘drab peacoats’ in dress regulations).

Its good that you have saved them 👍. I never understand the mentality of just letting them rot in poor storage. 

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[high wood]

From a post card that came from the house clearance I have a surname and an address, which corresponds with that of T/Captain Thomas Gibbons of the 6th battalion, Cheshire Regiment, later Royal Flying Corps. His medal index card gives the address as Magdala House, 109 Wellington Road, Stockport, which is confirmed by his Census entry. The address on the post card is confirmed by his R.A.F. service papers.

 

Edited 8 November , 2023 by high wood
Adding content.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, high wood said:

From a post card that came from the house clearance I have a surname and an address, which corresponds with that of T/Captain Thomas Gibbons of the 6th battalion, Cheshire Regiment, later Royal Flying Corps. His medal index card gives the address as Magdala House, 109 Wellington Road, Stockport, which is confirmed by his Census entry. The address on the post card is confirmed by his R.A.F. service papers.

There is some degree of facial similarity between all three men, but perhaps less so for the Cheshire.  Maybe they were cousins.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

17 minutes ago, high wood said:

I had thought that there might be a family connection between those depicted in the photographs and that I would be able to identify the officers from the four regiments depicted, namely, Cheshire Regiment, Manchester Regiment, Lincolnshire Regiment and Royal Army Medical Corps.

I have found the identity of the Cheshire Regiment officer but I am struggling to find the others.

I was going to ask if you thought these two were the same man - but possibly from the file titles you've given them you've already come to that conclusion

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owner.

Both Territorial Force Officers I see.

Cheers,
Peter

[high wood]

Another photograph shows the R.A.M.C. officer.

 

Edited 8 November , 2023 by high wood

[high wood]

I have the names of the brothers from the 1911 census. The family seem to have a history of Dental Surgery and of marrying later in life. I have checked for officers with the surname Gibbons serving in the various regiments shown but cannot find matches for any of them other than Thomas.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

I was going to ask if you thought these two were the same man - but possibly from the file titles you've given them you've already come to that conclusion

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owner.

Both Territorial Force Officers I see.

Cheers,
Peter

I think they are the same man Peter.

7 minutes ago, high wood said:

Another photograph shows the R.A.M.C. officer.

There was no dental corps back then and dentists were instead a sub set of specialists within the RAMC.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[high wood]

25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was no dental corps back then and dentists were instead a sub set within the RAMC.

Indeed, and despite being a full time dental surgeon, Thomas Gibbons found the time to be a serving officer in the Territorial Force, only missing out on a 1914 Star by eleven days, assuming that he had been under fire on his arrival.

There is another photograph of a Boer War R.A.M.C. officer called Matthais Frederick Foulds, who also served in the Great War. Presumably there is some connection with the Gibbons family. The photograph is named on its separated mounting board, but the worm holes match.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by high wood
Adding content.

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, high wood said:

Indeed, and despite being a full time dental surgeon, Thomas Gibbons found the time to be a serving officer in the Territorial Force, only missing out on a 1914 Star by eleven days, assuming that he had been under fire on his arrival.

There is another photograph of a Boer War R.A.M.C. officer called Matthais Frederick Foulds, who also served in the Great War. Presumably there is some connection with the Gibbons family. The photograph is named on its separated mounting board, but the worm holes match.

That’s a very fine photo of RAMC full dress.  I imagine that there probably was a connection, if not through family then through patronage.  At that time dental surgery was a very niche expertise, affordable to only the most wealthy (a bit like with the prevailing government!).  So appalling was the prevailing dental health of the nation that the Army had no choice but to start arranging dental treatment, as it had struggled to find physically fit recruits due to malnutrition, and some of those bodily fit men were barred purely because of bad teeth.  These could be more quickly resolved with the right treatment and so the Army began to make provision accordingly.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[high wood]

As depicted in this 1914 Punch cartoon.

[pierssc]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

At that time dental surgery was a very niche expertise, affordable to only the most wealthy (a bit like with the prevailing government!).  So appalling was the prevailing dental health of the nation that the Army had no choice but to start arranging dental treatment, as it had struggled to find physically fit recruits due to malnutrition, and some of those bodily fit men were barred purely because of bad teeth. 

You only have to think of the horrible teeth being flashed in "They Shall Not Grow Old" for examples of those they let through.  Goodness knows what the ones who were rejected were like!

[PRC]

I'm going to be out of circulation for the next few hours so I'll leave you with this card from the International Committee of the Red Cross, one of three for him, to get the ball rolling.

Image courtesy the International Committee of the Red Cross https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/116698/3/2/

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, high wood said:

As depicted in this 1914 Punch cartoon.

The trouble is that the humour of that cartoon risks ridiculing the realities of poor teeth for modern armies.  At that time they couldn’t afford soldiers who could not eat hard tack biscuits, and who could only eat soft food, and who are regularly incapable of taking their place in the line through ulcerated gums, or excruciating toothache.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, pierssc said:

You only have to think of the horrible teeth being flashed in "They Shall Not Grow Old" for examples of those they let through.  Goodness knows what the ones who were rejected were like!

Yes, it was a real military problem at the time and it became quite common for the worst cases to have all their teeth removed and cheap basic dentures fitted.

Edited 9 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[high wood]

43 minutes ago, PRC said:

I'm going to be out of circulation for the next few hours so I'll leave you with this card from the International Committee of the Red Cross, one of three for him, to get the ball rolling.

Image courtesy the International Committee of the Red Cross https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/116698/3/2/

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, that is a great help. I cannot find a M.I.C. card for him but he appears to have served with the 2/6th Btn, Manchester Regiment and was captured on the 21st March 1918

Edited 8 November , 2023 by high wood
Adding content.

[high wood]

There appears to be a 2nd Lieut. F.R. Gibbons of the 1/4th Lincolnshire Regiment who was taken PoW, 21st March 1918. There is no address given on the M.I.C., but he is a very strong candidate for Frederick Ralph Gibbons. The Red Cross card states that he served with the 5th Battalion, Lincolnshire Regt. Frederick Ralph Gibbons was commissioned into the Lincolnshire Regiment on the 1st August 1917, with the notification appearing in the London Gazette on the 7th September 1917.

Edited 10 November , 2023 by high wood
Adding content.

[PRC]

I was trying to come at this from the genealogy side but didn’t have time to tidy it up  and post before I had to go out. Bear in mind I don’t have a subscription to FindMyPast or Ancestry, so can’t fully check out some of the documents referred to.

 

I was also looking at the female siblings as well in case any of them had married, and so potentially some of the individuals might be their husbands \ husbands siblings.

The entry for the family on the 1911 Census of England & Wales shows that the parents Thomas and Margaret have been married 34 years and the union has produced 10 children, of which 9 were then still alive.

Children appear to be:

1.Birth?John W?
1881 Census of England & Wales, John W., aged 3, born Carlisle , Cumberland.
1891 Census of England & Wales, John W., aged 13, born Carlisle, Cumberland.
1901 Census of England & Wales, John W, aged 23, self employed dental surgeon working from home, single, born Carlisle, Cumberland.
1906 Q3 – Marriage of John Walton Gibbons to Jane Moss in the Stockport District.
1911 Census of England & Wales, John Walton Gibbons, aged 33, Dental Surgeon, born Carlisle, married head of the household at Walton House, Albert Road, Heaton Moor, Heaton Norris, Stockport.
John Walton Gibbons, of Walton House, Albert Road, Heaton Moor, Stockport, was a Voluntary Member of the Red Cross, providing part-time transport of wounded from Ambulance Trains & from & to Base & Auxiliary Hospitals. Car & petrol provided by him. Started 25^th November 1914, no end date recorded. https://vad.redcross.org.uk/record?rowKey=83328
The death of a 71 year old John Walton Gibbons was recorded in the Stockport District in Q1 1949. The 1950 Probate Calendar records that a John Walton Gibbons, of Walton House, Albert Road, Heaton Moor, Cheshire, died on the 25^th March 1949. Probate was granted to Jane Gibbons, widow.

2.Arthur Henry Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q1 1880.
1881 Census of England & Wales, Arthur Hy?, aged 1, born Stockport.
1891 Census of England & Wales, Arthur H., aged 11, born Stockport.
1901 Census of England & Wales, Arthur H., aged 21, Bank Clerk, born Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales Arthur Henry, aged 31, single, Bank Cashier, born Stockport.
1921 Census of England & Wales, Thomas, born Stockport c1880 indexed at Sale, Cheshire in a household with an Edith Mary.

3.Thomas Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q1 1882.
1891 Census of England & Wales, Thomas, aged 9, born Stockport.
1901 Census of England & Wales, Thomas, aged 19, single, Dental Student, boen Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales, Thomas, aged 29, single, Dental Surgeon, born Stockport.
Thomas Gibbons, born 25^th December 1881, (so likely to have his birth registered with the civil authorities in Q1 1882) served with the 6^th Battalion, Cheshire Regiment and subsequently the Royal Air Force – see images already posted.
The death of a 69 year old Thomas Gibbons was recorded in the Stockport District in Q4 1950. The 1951 Probate Calendar has a Thomas Gibbons, of 20 Albert Road, Levenshulme, Lancashire, who died on the 28^th December 1950. The reason I believe it is relevant is because probate was granted to Frederick Ralph Gibbons, dental surgeon.

4.Annie Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q1 1884.
1891 Census of England & Wales, Annie, aged 7, born Stockport.
1901 Census of England & Wales, Annie, aged 17, born Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales, Annie, aged 27, single, born Stockport.
A Miss Annie Gibbons, of Sussone, Heaton Chapel, served as a Red Cross Assistant Nurse from January 1915 to January 1919 at Lancashire Ordinance Works Ambulance Room, George's Rd., Stockport . https://vad.redcross.org.uk/record?rowKey=83291
1921 Census of England & Wales, an Annie Gibbons, born Stockport c1884, was indexed at Heaton Norris in a household with Margaret, Thomas and 7 others.

5.Jessie Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q4 1885.
1891 Census of England & Wales, Jessie, aged 5, born Stockport.
1901 Census of England & Wales, Jessie, aged 15, single, born Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales, Jessie, aged 25, single, born Stockport.
A Miss Jessie Gibbons, of “Lunone” (probable error – see Annie and RAF card for Thomas), Heaton Chapel, served as a Red Cross Assistant Nurse from January 1915 to ongoing at Lancashire Ordinance Works Ambulance Room, George's Rd., Stockport. https://vad.redcross.org.uk/record?rowKey=83323
1921 Census of England & Wales, a Jessie Gibbons, born Stockport c1885, was indexed at Heaton Norris in a household with Thomas, Margaret and 7 others.

6.Maggie Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q3 1887.
1891 Census of England & Wales, Maggie, aged 3, born Stockport.
1901 Census of England & Wales, Maggie, aged 13, born Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales, Maggie, aged 23, single, born Stockport.
1921 Census of England & Wales, a Maggie Gibbons, born Stockport c1888, was indexed at Heaton Norris in a household with Thomas, Margaret and 7 others.

7.William Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q2 1889.
1891 Census of England & Wales, William, aged 1, born Stockport.
1901 Census of England & Wales, William, aged 11, born Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales, William, aged 21, single, Salesman – Printed Calico, born Stockport.
A William Gibbons, born Stockport c1889 has surviving service records in the WO/363 series showing him as 19/11813, Manchester Regiment and dating from 1914. No obvious MiC.
The International Committee of Red Cross shows Captain William Gibbons captured on the 21^st March 1918 while serving with ‘A’ Company, 2/6^th Battalion, Manchester Regiment. PA23329 shows him born 10^th May 1890 at Stockport which doesn’t tie up with the civil records. Next of kin is living at “Surrone”, Heaton Moor, Stockport. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/116698/698/23329/
No obvious MiC.
In the British Monthly List for March 1918 there is no W. Gibbons listed on the Officer establishment of the 6^th Battalion, but under the 8^th (Ardwick) Battalion (Territorial) there is a Lieutenant W. Gibbons with seniority from the 1^st July 1917 who was acting as a temporary Captain from the 23^rd October 1917 – but there are no specific unit details given such as 1^st Line, 2^nd Line or Reserve, nor is he shown as attached elsewhere, (see column 1406e) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103602326
Because of the way it has been scanned by the National Library of Scotland his entry in the November 1918 British Army List is virtually unreadable. But his entry on the December 1918 British Army List clearly shows him as a Lieutenant on the officer establishment of the 8^th Battalion but serving as a Captain with the 6^th Battalion – top of column 1406f. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103440728
An edition of the Manchester Regiment Gazette from 1921 in it’s section for the 8^th Battalion records that a Lieutenant W. Gibbons has resigned his commission with effect from the 9^th December 1920 and will retain the rank of Captain.
Name and date https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/3717787Preamble https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/3717786
1921 Census of England & Wales, a William Gibbons, born Stockport c1889, was indexed at Heaton Norris in a household with Thomas, Margaret and 7 others.

8.Possibly Amy Susannah Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q3 1891. The death of an Amy Susannah Gibbons, aged under 1 was recorded in the same district in Q2 1892

9.Adelaide Mary Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q1 1896.
1901 Census of England & Wales, Ada M., aged 5, born Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales, Adelaide Mary, aged 15, single, born Stockport.
1921 Census of England & Wales, an Adelaide Mary Gibbons, born Stockport c1896, was indexed at Heaton Norris in a household with Thomas, Margaret and 7 others.
Possible typo - The death of an Adelaide Mary Gibbons, born 31^st December 1896, was recorded in the Stockport District in Q4 1975. 1975 Probate Calendar records that Adelaide Mary Gibbons of 42 Heaton Moor Road, Stockport died on the 6^th October 1975.

10.Frederick Ralph Gibbons, mothers’ maiden name Walton, birth registered Stockport Q3 1897.
1901 Census of England & Wales, Frederick, aged 3, born Stockport.
1911 Census of England & Wales, Frederick Ralph, aged 13, single, born Stockport.
The March 1918 British Army List has a Second Lieutenant F.R. Gibbons with seniority from the 1^st August 1917 who was on the officer establishment of the 4^th Battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment, and who was serving with the 1/4^th Battalion, see column 999b. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103598018
In January 1918 the 1/4^th Battalion and the 2/4^th Battalion were merged into a single 4^th Battalion. The new unit took the place of the old 2/4^th in the 59^th Division.
In the edition of The Times dated Monday, April 10^th 1918, Second Lieutenant F.R. Gibbons, Lincolnshire Regiment is recorded amongst the Officers reported Missing in the Official Casualty List. Other missing Lincolnshire Officers include:_
Sec. Lt. W.G. Allen, Capt. A. Begg Norfolk Regiment attached Lincolnshire Regiment, Capt. B.H. Challenor, Sec. Lt P.E. Cottis, and Capt. R.J.R. Hett.
Allen and Begg have ICRC cards showing a “negatif envoye” response, while Challenor, Cottis and Hett were all captured on the 21^st March 1918. Challenor \ Challinor and Cottis were with the 2/5^th Battalion, while Edmond John Roslin Hett just shows Lincolnshire Regiment. I tried searching neighbouring pages for each of their PA reports but no stand out candidates for a hash job on the name Frederick Ralph Gibbons.
No obvious MiC other than the one showing him on the exonerated list already posted above.
1921 Census of England & Wales, a Frederick Ralph Gibbons, born Stockport c1897, was indexed at Heaton Norris in a household with Thomas, Margaret and 7 others.
Possible transcription error – the death of a Frederick Ralph Gibbons, born 11^th August 1899, was recorded in the Manchester District in Q2 1973. The 1974 Probate Calendar records that a Frederick Ralph Gibbons of 42 Heaton Moor Road, Stockport, died on the 29^th June 1973.

Hope that’s of interest,
Peter

[high wood]

Peter,

I really appreciate the amount of time and effort that you have invested into your comprehensive reply. Thank you very much. There is some very useful information there which gives the impression of a close knit family 'doing their bit' for the war effort. It seems that everyone in the family was involved in some way or other.

I am very pleased that the persons in the tatty photographs have now been identified and that all ther efforts have not gone unrecorded. I will see what I can do in the way of stabilizing the photographs for posterity.

Many thanks,

Simon.

 

 

 

[PRC]

There didn't at first appear to be much left to make a comparison with, but playing with the tonal map and using the auto-heal function on my dodgy old software, I think these two images are of the same man. From the collar badge on display on the right hand image that would make him Frederick Ralph Gibbons.

Hairline, parting, outer ear shape, general nose shape, what little we can see of his left eye and what can be made out faintly of the collar badges of the image on the left hand image are very comparable.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[high wood]

Yes, I think that you are right, it is the same man, Frederick Ralph Gibbons. There is only the officer in the R.A.M.C. uniform who is left unidentified.

Edited 9 November , 2023 by high wood

[PRC]

Looks like there are three shots of the same man, as you've already stated. They appear to have been taken in the same session - only head position and expression really varies. From the cap badge that would make the most likely candidate Thomas Gibbons. But is the image on the right hand end also Thomas?

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owner.

47 minutes ago, high wood said:

There is only the officer in the R.A.M.C. uniform who is left unidentified.

Who do we think the two men in the overcoats are? From the dress of the OR's in the background does it suggest pre-war or early war, possibly in the UK?

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

Looks like there are three shots of the same man, as you've already stated. They appear to have been taken in the same session - only head position and expression really varies. From the cap badge that would make the most likely candidate Thomas Gibbons. But is the image on the right hand end also Thomas?

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owner.

Who do we think the two men in the overcoats are? From the dress of the OR's in the background does it suggest pre-war or early war, possibly in the UK?

Cheers,
Peter

I think the far right fellow, though also a Cheshire, is a different man Peter.  His jaw line in particular different and ending in a more pointed chin.

The two officers in British Warm overcoats appear to be at a tented encampment in cold conditions as the men at rear are wearing dismounted pattern greatcoats.  The U.K. seems more likely as there’s no sign of arms, or field equipment.