Wounded to Notification Home - A Realistic Window

[Iamsmudge]

Hi Guys,

From your extensive experience in these matters, does anyone have a realistic time window I can work with for, date of wounding, to notification home? I have a number of letters notifying: Joe Smith has this day been admitted to 22 Field Ambulance etc. I'm trying to work out from those admission letters which battle or action he might have been involved in.

I am aware of course that this is incredibly variable in nature, but was wondering if there's a range I could work within, or whether someone has more detailed knowledge for that notification home process and how long it took or how accurate those letters were.

[kenf48]

53 minutes ago, Iamsmudge said:

I am aware of course that this is incredibly variable in nature, but was wondering if there's a range I could work within, or whether someone has more detailed knowledge for that notification home process and how long it took or how accurate those letters were.

Men would generally arrive at the Field Ambulance within a few hours.  The best way to assess which engagement is to consider which Division the Field Ambulance was attached to at the time the casualty was recorded.

Your post seems rather vague but 22 FA for example was attached to 7th Division, they would therefore be receiving casualties from that Division, or other regiments engaged in action alongside that Division. The war diary would give their location and the diary of the ADMS the arrangements for evacuation. The LLT will help with major battles e.g. 7th Division

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/7th-division/

The postal service on the Western Front was quite efficient therefore a telegram to the UK, or the soldier's postcard would get home at least within the week if not sooner.

 

[Iamsmudge]

14 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Men would generally arrive at the Field Ambulance within a few hours.  The best way to assess which engagement is to consider which Division the Field Ambulance was attached to at the time the casualty was recorded.

Your post seems rather vague but 22 FA for example was attached to 7th Division, they would therefore be receiving casualties from that Division, or other regiments engaged in action alongside that Division. The war diary would give their location and the diary of the ADMS the arrangements for evacuation. The LLT will help with major battles e.g. 7th Division

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/7th-division/

The postal service on the Western Front was quite efficient therefore a telegram to the UK, or the soldier's postcard would get home at least within the week if not sooner.

 

Hi Ken, very helpful thank you. Not trying to be vague, just not expecting others to do my research. So really just looking for pointers rather than particulars.

I have a letter dated 26 August 1916 worded as follows:

Madam,

I regret to have to inform you that a report has this day been received from the war office to the effect that (No) 13720 (Rank) Private (Name) J Smith (Regiment) Worcestershire Regt is admitted to 5 General Hospital Rouen suffering from Gunshot wound left leg. Any further information received in this office as to his condition or progress will be at once notified to you.

I notice that the letter doesn't say he was wounded on this day, or that he arrived at Rouen on this day, simply that the writer has received a report this day and that the report came from the war office. I'm wondering whether anyone has any information on that notification chain. How long would it have been before the war office was aware of his presence in Rouen, how long then the subsequent relay to the records office at Warwick?

 

[TEW]

This kind of information was usually dealt with by telegrams.

It's quite a normal practise for a field hospital to telegram a list of wounded to the War Office. Another part of the war office would then inform Warwick RO who in turn would telegram the  NOK with the details known.

Updates to the man's progress would follow along the same method. If he was to be sent home the NOK would similarly be updated with his new location but I've only seen this done via a telegram.

I've seen telegrams where EG. Warwick could be informed of a man's admission to EG. Rouen on the same day, feasibly Warwick could telegram the NOK the same day although in practise Warwick could receive 20 lists of men a day, especially around Aug 16.

Your letter seems to convey the same details in the same way although the telegrams are usually a little terse.

I wonder if Warwick had actually coincidentally received a letter from the NOK and were replying by letter out of courtesy.

Alternatively, could the letter actually be a family transcription of a telegram?

TEW 

[Iamsmudge]

8 minutes ago, TEW said:

This kind of information was usually dealt with by telegrams.

It's quite a normal practise for a field hospital to telegram a list of wounded to the War Office. Another part of the war office would then inform Warwick RO who in turn would telegram the  NOK with the details known.

Updates to the man's progress would follow along the same method. If he was to be sent home the NOK would similarly be updated with his new location but I've only seen this done via a telegram.

I've seen telegrams where EG. Warwick could be informed of a man's admission to EG. Rouen on the same day, feasibly Warwick could telegram the NOK the same day although in practise Warwick could receive 20 lists of men a day, especially around Aug 16.

Your letter seems to convey the same details in the same way although the telegrams are usually a little terse.

I wonder if Warwick had actually coincidentally received a letter from the NOK and were replying by letter out of courtesy.

Alternatively, could the letter actually be a family transcription of a telegram?

TEW 

Hi Tew,

This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for thank you. See the letter attached below. I have maybe 3 or 4 others including a missing in action notification, all are in the same or similar format. The reverse side carries a 1 penny stamp and date mark.

In this evenings reading of the 2nd Worcester War Diary, I have managed to find what I'm pretty sure is the action during which he was wounded related to this letter. The date of the attack was entered as the 24th August, for an attack on Tea Trench, Delville Wood. There are no actions or losses for a week prior to that. If that's correct that would make this a 2 day turnaround. I'll try and use that kind of time frame for the other letters as I press on, hopefully other war diaries are not too difficult to find.

[TEW]

Another, cruder way of testing a timeline is via the Official Casualty Lists, generally a 3-4 week delay from wound to publication is the given gap.

13720 Smith was published 22/9/16 so that fits with your dates.

I had a look at some other resources without any luck.

I've attached an example of a Sick & Wounded List (HA 1531) for Warwick in early Aug. I've looked for 13720 on other lists with no luck.

So, a list (in another format) was received at the WO (C2: Casualties Dept.). They had to collate the lists into the various record office groups and then telegram a copy of the list like the attached to each office.

I see they processed about 85 HA lists between 24th & 26th Aug. with potentialy 30 men on each list = 2,550, this would be for France and Flanders only.

HA 1531 has three men admitted to 5 GH Rouen 5/8/16, I hoped to find one service record but had no luck, that would give you the timeframe for wound to admission to 5 GH and the inclusion of that man's name on the next list to be transmitted. NB. The men would appear on later HA lists normally as discharged to Convalescent Depot, another hospital, or a Hospital Ship.

It's normally the base hospitals that initiate these lists although they can originate from a CCS in exceptional circumstances.

Relatively speaking very few of the HA type lists have survived, I think we only have a handfull of the 85 I mentioned. A military name/number search on Find my Past should pick up an entry on these lists but in practise not every list has been transcribed. Just as an extra level of complication my HA 1531 example list comes from a Newfoundlander's service record and they archived their lists in another way. FMP does not have this list and I doubt Ancestry have either.

TEW

Image Courtesy of TheRooms

[Iamsmudge]

Fantastic thank you. Good to know this process exists as an option to explore, as I think the other two occurrences of his being wounded may be difficult to track down.

[TEW]

I saw a gassing event for him circa Sept 1915.

TEW

[Iamsmudge]

Really, I wonder if that's for the letter attached below, seems that it might be. Do you have dates that line up with his returning to duty on 27th September 1915. I don't have the first or 2nd letters in this series of 3 where Warwick appear to have contacted his wife initially, she replied and this letter is in reply to that. Also I haven't yet seen any war diaries for 2nd Worcestershire for this time period, so this is new for me.

Also, if treated for a gas related injury is that classed as a 'wounding', such that it would entitle him to a gold strip(e)?

 

 

 

[TEW]

The official casualty list notes : Suffering From Gas Poisoning. This is dated 1/11/1915 and will be in The Times of that date. Additionally, it says Report Received 21/10/15. Applying the normal rule would give an event date of late Sept/early Oct. This would mean though that the 'report received' was much delayed.

Also noted is that he was discharged to duty 27/9/1915. This would mean that either the reporting of his gas injury was much delayed or that this is another event altogether.

To be published it would have to be fairly serious and in being published that would earn a wound stripe.

I'm not sure if this relates to the Battle of Loos but that was seriously complicated for the diagnosing, reporting etc. of gas wounds to British troops, if so that may explain such a delay.

Dairies should be here;

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=wo95&_dss=range&_ro=any&_q="2+battalion+worcestershire"

TEW

 

[Iamsmudge]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

The official casualty list notes : Suffering From Gas Poisoning. This is dated 1/11/1915 and will be in The Times of that date. Additionally, it says Report Received 21/10/15. Applying the normal rule would give an event date of late Sept/early Oct. This would mean though that the 'report received' was much delayed.

Also noted is that he was discharged to duty 27/9/1915. This would mean that either the reporting of his gas injury was much delayed or that this is another event altogether.

To be published it would have to be fairly serious and in being published that would earn a wound stripe.

I'm not sure if this relates to the Battle of Loos but that was seriously complicated for the diagnosing, reporting etc. of gas wounds to British troops, if so that may explain such a delay.

Dairies should be here;

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=wo95&_dss=range&_ro=any&_q="2+battalion+worcestershire"

TEW

 

The plot thickens. Based on the letters I have and the discharge card stating wounded 3 times in action, I had assumed he was wounded twice in France and once later in Salonika. However, Salonika now shows two dates more than 3 months apart and 2 different hospitals. So its entirely possible he was only wounded once in France and twice in Salonika. If that's true, this gas event would not have counted towards his 'wounded 3 times in action' as I already have a pretty definite result for his wounding 26/08/1916 at Delville.

Re: Worcester war diaries, I have that link and have downloaded the diary, but it only starts at 01/01/1916 I'm afraid.

I think I'll concentrate on Salonika for a bit as I have the book, linked in here in various places, that has great detail for the Battle of Dorjan and Tumbitza Farm where I think he was wounded again at least once with the 10th Hampshire.

Thank you for your help, its greatly appreciated

 

[TEW]

There are records showing for two wound stripes. The online resources do not cover the whole war and publishing the lists was suspended for summer 1917, wound stripes still issued though.

So, there are voids in the records for wound stripes.

Not all wounds were considered serious enough to be published and led to a wound stripe. He may have been wounded EG. six times but had 3 stripes.

The diary link was for two diaries, the 2nd starting Aug 1914-Dec 1915. Unless they've made a error?

TEW

[TEW]

Sorry, made a bit of a muddle with some dates. Edited the post.

A quick summary for 22 Field Ambulance for the Battle of Loos from 25th Sept.

They were running an advanced dressing station and the main dressing station, the latter was located in a French Hospital. This may be where the confusion arises in your letter 30/10/15.

25th Sept. They don't give much detail except to say they had many wounded but don't mention any gassed.

26th Sept. they admitted 24 gassed men, not considered severe cases.

27th Sept. Admitted 464 men but no specifics on gassed numbers. Some of these had been exposed to gas and laid out all night so were in a worse condition.

27th Sept. They discharged to duty 27 men, 13720 would be included. I'd assume he was admitted on the 26th as one of the 24.

NB. This is British Gas that blew back or across British troops. There is a point in time on the 26th 25th that orders were sent out that gassed men should not be reported as wounded. Looks like 13720 was an early casualty on the 25th.

TEW

Edited 7 November , 2023 by TEW
Date corrections

[RussT]

There is an Medical A&D registry entry for him being admitted to 51st Field Ambulance on 10/08/1916 with a shrapnel wound to left thigh.

He was discharged same day to "hospital" - which one and where not specified.

Russ

[Iamsmudge]

@TEW You're an absolute star I'll add all these dates to my spreadsheet and see if I can start working through duplicate references to the same events etc. Of course you were perfectly correct and there is a link there to the 14-15 diaries as well for 2nd Worcesters, nit sure how I missed that.

@RussT That would be a new event as far as my timeline looks currently, I have him at 5 General Hospital with gunshot wound left leg on 26th August, my thinking so far is that is received on the 24th from the attack on Tea Trench. I suppose its possible that he was never at Tea Trench and that his shrapnel wound and the gunshot wound to left thigh are one and the same and he spent a longer time 'in the system' than first thought. Which would mean the letter home posted first in this thread took longer to turn around than the two days assumed.

I'll read back over the war diaries this evening for the date of the shrapnel wound.

Thank you both

[Matlock1418]

Joe / Joseph SMITH, 13720 Worcestershire Regt. and 31918, Hampshire Regt.

This pension index card at WFA/Fold3 may offer an idea about speeds other notifications, to the MoP - if you know the cause in 1917 [I presume 1917]

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Form 104-88 = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office - thence to the Pensions Office.

It would seem some error had been made as then later quite a turn-around from the earliest notification recorded

His MIC shows Dis'd 5.3.18 and a further PIC shows a Chelsea Hospital claim reference for an unspecified disability pension claim and an award of 27/6 pw from 6.3.18 to 2.4.18 [The 100% disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Pte. - a short payment interim generally reflected them thinking he would either get better quickly or that they would have a longer term pension quickly sorted and on other PIC several later MoP claim references are shown suggesting the claim did continue for a while longer]

Two later PIC refer to Treatment (Ins) and Treat: (Insane) 27/4/25 or 27/4/28 [last digit is unclear] - Clearly he was not a well man by then.

M

[TEW]

WO List B 6537 [Corrected number] would date to approx first week of May 1917. It is a Balkans Force List originating from Salonica.

May 1917 fits snugly into the period when published lists were suspended and are not available.

TEW

Edited 7 November , 2023 by TEW

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

WO List B 6357 would date to approx first week of May 1917. It is a Balkans Force List originating from Salonica.

 Thank you for picking up on that list reference, I hoped somebody would.

M

Edited 7 November , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Iamsmudge]

@Matlock1418 Wow, I have already been impressed by the guys here and how much information has been provided to me but this is beyond what I thought was available.

To give you the story on his mental health. He had to wear 'surgical boots' on his return and they caused him a lot of pain. He was constantly trying to have them changed or upgraded/replaced, according to family members. With often times his pleas being rejected. He also couldn't find work and his mental health deteriorated. At some point mid to late 20's his wife had an affair and he "smashed the place up" is how it was told to me. He was at that point arrested and assessed as mentally unsound and committed to Claybury Hospital Woodford. (might be wrong about the hospital name, been a long time since I was told and may be inserting a known hospital there from my dodgy memory). He spent the rest of his life there and died there.

Most sadly for me is that his incarceration was seen as a family embarrassment and although he and I were alive at the same time, I never heard his name or knew of his existence until I joined the army myself and someone mentioned it in passing. His son, my grandad was never allowed to visit him and wouldn't have had any memories of him as he was very young at the time. (I'm sure much of this tragic ending is due to the infidelity of his wife, out of sight out of mind and all that)

The whole point of this research process is to produce accounts of his time overseas and send it out to remaining family members as a kind of, oh I don't know what... something, maybe just re-tell his story a bit.

See below a rejection letter relating to his request for boots.

 

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, Iamsmudge said:

To give you the story on his mental health. He had to wear 'surgical boots' on his return and they caused him a lot of pain. He was constantly trying to have them changed or upgraded/replaced, according to family members. With often times his pleas being rejected. He also couldn't find work and his mental health deteriorated. At some point mid to late 20's his wife had an affair and he "smashed the place up" is how it was told to me. He was at that point arrested and assessed as mentally unsound and committed to Claybury Hospital Woodford. (might be wrong about the hospital name, been a long time since I was told and may be inserting a known hospital there from my dodgy memory). He spent the rest of his life there and died there.

Most sadly for me is that his incarceration was seen as a family embarrassment and although he and I were alive at the same time, I never heard his name or knew of his existence until I joined the army myself and someone mentioned it in passing. His son, my grandad was never allowed to visit him and wouldn't have had any memories of him as he was very young at the time. (I'm sure much of this tragic ending is due to the infidelity of his wife, out of sight out of mind and all that)

The whole point of this research process is to produce accounts of his time overseas and send it out to remaining family members as a kind of, oh I don't know what... something, maybe just re-tell his story a bit.

See below a rejection letter relating to his request for boots.

The pension system and its level of aid to disabled men could at times seem to have been rather harsh and quite inflexible.

Whilst the use of asylums for those with mental health problems was a truly tragic one.

A very sad tale - and worthy of telling, however hard it might be, so that Joe SMITH is not lost/swept under the table.  May he now RIP and you be successful in your endeavours.

M

[Iamsmudge]

Thank you that's very kind

[Iamsmudge]

@Matlock1418

Regarding your discovery of the Form 104-88  (Death notification) I have found the following 4 letters that I think pertain to that event: Inserted into a timeline below. The last few interactions 4 - 6 seem slightly longer between communication, but I don't see how they can't be related to the same events as by this time he was no longer fit. This final injury would see him come all the way back to Ballyvonare, from where he was finally discharged. Does this chain seem correct to you? I wonder why the wife waited an extra month between 17th May and late June (presumed) before notifying them that she knew he was alive. Perhaps she was waiting for the pension to be paid alluded to in the Exeter letter dated 5/07/17.

1. 6/05/17   - report of death received - (from 104-88)
2. 12/05/17 - death notification - (from 104-88)
3. 12/05/17 - Letter to wife from Regimental paymaster - 'Reported Missing' Notification that separation allowance will continue for 30 weeks from the date of the letter.
4. 17/05/17 - Letter to wife from Exeter RO: Pte J Smith has been admitted to 29 General Hospital Salonica (sic) suffering severe wounds
5. unknown - (presumed) Letter from wife to Exeter RO; (presumed content) 'I have been sent pension form from paymaster, and also notified Joe is in 29 General'
6. 5/07/17   - Letter to wife from Exeter RO: I regret an army form in connection with a claim for pension was sent to you in error. You are quite right in stating that your husband No 31918 Pte Joe Smith is at 29 General Hospital Salonica (sic) & should anything further be reported of him it shall at once be communicated to you.
7. 18/08/17 - Letter to wife from Exeter RO: Pte Joe Smith admitted to St Elmo Military hospital Malta.

Edited 7 November , 2023 by Iamsmudge

[Matlock1418]

Chain seems likely and a 30 week SA continuation is pretty normal - once a man was confirmed dead [or a missing man was presumed dead after 26 weeks] they waited at least 26 weeks before starting a pension [and the time gave them time to calculate it too - and no point in awarding it and then struggling to get it back I guess]

Can't explain the delay in her notifying his presence in 29 GH.

M

Edited 8 November , 2023 by Matlock1418

[TEW]

Wasn't she notified by Exeter RO that he was in 29 GH 17/5/17?

Why would she understand the system and not assume that everyone knew he was alive and in 29GH. Up to the point she queried being sent the pension form 2 months later.

TEW

[TEW]

15 hours ago, RussT said:

There is an Medical A&D registry entry for him being admitted to 51st Field Ambulance on 10/08/1916 with a shrapnel wound to left thigh.

He was discharged same day to "hospital" - which one and where not specified.

Russ

51 FA were running a dressing station on the Montauban-Mametz road and a collecting post in Bernafay Wood.

The logical discharges would either be 'back to duty' or to CCS. Wounded can't be evacuated from an ADS to Hospital so that may mean CCS or to Hospital via CCS, a bit of a vague term though.

There were CCSs at Heilly and Vecquemont, all part of the evacuation chain from 51 FA's ADS.

Ambulance train arrivals in Rouen for the period 10th-26th Aug are almost exclusively from Heilly and Vecquemont, sometimes 3-4 per day.

It seems too coincidental to be seperate incidents, two injuries to left leg 12 days apart?

TEW