Scottish Uniform Query

[Pete_C]

I’m trying to identify which Regiment/Battalion this uniform belonged to  - I believe it all to be attributable to one individual.
The uniform is not mine and these are the only photographs I have.  Based on the tailor’s label and a related haversack in my own collection with the initials ‘R.D.S.’ written inside the flap, I believe the owner was a Captain R D Smith - there does however appear to be third initial present on the jacket’s label.

I’m not a proficient researcher and the only possibly related record I’ve uncovered is Captain Robert Dunlop Smith who enlisted in The Gordon Highlanders pre 1914, received a commission in the Indian Army (33rd Punjabis) and was killed in action in June 1917. However the tailor’s label looks to be dated August 1917 and the jacket is sporting War and Victory medal ribbons, so it can’t have belonged to him ?

Cheers,

Pete

 

 

Edited 6 November , 2023 by Pete_C

[gnr.ktrha]

It is a Territorial, Captains tunic of the Gordon Highlanders. What is a bit odd is that it has WW2 Period 51st Highland Division badges on the shoulders. By WW2 they were not using cuff ranks, so the 51st Div badges are a bit strange. I will dig about and see when these Division badges were first used as it might be possible that the tunic was used between the wars. I have seen Black Watch soldiers wearing them in the late 1930's, circa 1936.

[4thGordons]

The 51 HD badges were present by 1919/20 I think - I have a pic somewhere of Gordons sgts with all their 14/18 medals and HD shoulder flashes

I'll see if I can find it.

Chris

 

Edited 6 November , 2023 by 4thGordons

[CorporalPunishment]

27 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

The 51 HD badges were present by 1919/20 I think - I have a pic somewhere of Gordons sgts with all their 14/18 medals and HD shoulder flashes

I'll see if I can find it.

Chris

 

That's a great image and definitely 1920s going by the presence of the RAPC sergeant wearing the rarely seen 1920-29 pattern cap and collar badges. Sorry for the diversion.        Pete.

[gnr.ktrha]

What a great photograph. Any idea where it was taken? Interestingly, there are no HD badges of this pattern to be seen worn by members of the divisional guard of honour during their unveiling of the divisional memorial at Beaumont-Hamel in September 1924. The only divisional badge on display is the larger circular HD badge and it only seems to be worn by a Royal Scot, none of the kilted Highland regiments are wearing anything other than regimental badges. There are a number of Gordon's in the photographs from the 4th 5/7th and 6th battalion, 

[Pete_C]

Thanks all for the swift and very interesting responses. 
Am I correct to conclude that the collar badge in the OP is the ‘rarely seen 1920-29 pattern badge’ mentioned in Pete’s reply, as it’s the only Gordon’s badge that appears to bear any resemblance when compared to the badges on display in 4th Gordon’s excellent photo.

Cheers

 

Edited 6 November , 2023 by Pete_C

[CorporalPunishment]

10 minutes ago, Pete_C said:

Thanks all for the swift and very interesting responses. 
Am I correct to conclude that the collar badge in the OP is the ‘rarely seen 1920-29 pattern badge’ mentioned in Pete’s reply, as it’s the only Gordon’s badge that appears to bear any resemblance when compared to the badges on display in 4th Gordon’s excellent photo.

Cheers

 

No, sorry for any confusion. I was referring to the Royal Army Pay Corps sergeant centre rear.      Pete.

[Pete_C]

7 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

No, sorry for any confusion. I was referring to the Royal Army Pay Corps sergeant centre rear.      Pete.

No, my mistake Pete, you did clearly say RAPC.

Cheers

[PRC]

After “Smith” the label looks like it might read “Capt”, which would certainly be in keeping with the cuff rank

And the Territorial Force Battalions of the Gordon Highlanders were the 4^th, 5^th, 6^th and 7^th with the usual 1^st line, 2^nd line and 3^rd line iterations, along with the Shetland Companies who went to France in June 1915 and who were absorbed into the 1/4^th in late 1916 – the question would then be if they had left a small cadre in the UK. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/gordon-highlanders/

A check of the August 1917 British Army List for those Battalions turns up:-

4^th Battalion.

Serving with Divisional Cyclist Company Lieutenant W. Smith with seniority from the 1^st June 1916.
4^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant J.C. Smith with seniority from the 28^th August 1915.
4^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant D.H.B. Smith with seniority from the 25^th January 1917.
4^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant J.W.K. Smith with seniority from the 1^st March 1917.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168369

5^th Battalion.

Serving with “C.p.” Captain J.T. Smith T.D. Honorary Militia Territorial Force, with seniority from the 20^th May 1903.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168381

6^th Battalion.

1/6^th Battalion Lieutenant A.F. Smith with seniority from the 5^th December 1916.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168393

7^th Battalion.

Serving with the 5^th Battalion 2^nd Lieutenant J.W. Smith with seniority from the 25^th October 1916.
7^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant G.L. Smith, with seniority from the 26^th April 1917.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168405

Shetland Companies

Captain A.J. Smith with seniority from the 13^th February 1917.

There was always time lags in the Monthly List being updated but could be a delay in updating someone being transferred in, or they could have died \ resigned \ released prior to the date for picking up the uniform and this has been reflected in the list, assuming the Gordon Highlanders badges are contemporary rather than a later addition.

Going forward to the November 1918 British Army list

4^th Battalion
A Lieutenant J.C. Smith is shown with the 4^th Reserves, seniority from the 1^st July 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant J.W.K. Smith is now attached to the 8/10^th Battalion.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123104769

6^th Battalion

Holding either a General, Administrative, Technical or Departmental Staff Appointment  Lieutenant A.F. Smith with seniority from the 5^th December 1916.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123104805

7^th Battalion

Serving with the Colonial Office 2^nd Lieutenant G.L. Smith with seniority from the 26^th April 1917.

Shetland Companies

Serving attached to the 3^rd Battalion Captain A.J. Smith with seniority from the 13^th February 1917.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123104817

So as far as those sources go those look to be your choices.

Cheers,
Peter

[Pete_C]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

After “Smith” the label looks like it might read “Capt”, which would certainly be in keeping with the cuff rank

 

And the Territorial Force Battalions of the Gordon Highlanders were the 4^th, 5^th, 6^th and 7^th with the usual 1^st line, 2^nd line and 3^rd line iterations, along with the Shetland Companies who went to France in June 1915 and who were absorbed into the 1/4^th in late 1916 – the question would then be if they had left a small cadre in the UK. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/gordon-highlanders/

 

A check of the August 1917 British Army List for those Battalions turns up:-

4^th Battalion.

 

Serving with Divisional Cyclist Company Lieutenant W. Smith with seniority from the 1^st June 1916.
4^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant J.C. Smith with seniority from the 28^th August 1915.
4^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant D.H.B. Smith with seniority from the 25^th January 1917.
4^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant J.W.K. Smith with seniority from the 1^st March 1917.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168369

 

5^th Battalion.

 

Serving with “C.p.” Captain J.T. Smith T.D. Honorary Militia Territorial Force, with seniority from the 20^th May 1903.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168381

 

6^th Battalion.

 

1/6^th Battalion Lieutenant A.F. Smith with seniority from the 5^th December 1916.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168393

 

7^th Battalion.

 

Serving with the 5^th Battalion 2^nd Lieutenant J.W. Smith with seniority from the 25^th October 1916.
7^th Reserves 2^nd Lieutenant G.L. Smith, with seniority from the 26^th April 1917.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103168405

 

Shetland Companies

 

Captain A.J. Smith with seniority from the 13^th February 1917.

 

There was always time lags in the Monthly List being updated but could be a delay in updating someone being transferred in, or they could have died \ resigned \ released prior to the date for picking up the uniform and this has been reflected in the list, assuming the Gordon Highlanders badges are contemporary rather than a later addition.

 

Going forward to the November 1918 British Army list

 

4^th Battalion
A Lieutenant J.C. Smith is shown with the 4^th Reserves, seniority from the 1^st July 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant J.W.K. Smith is now attached to the 8/10^th Battalion.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123104769

 

6^th Battalion

Holding either a General, Administrative, Technical or Departmental Staff Appointment  Lieutenant A.F. Smith with seniority from the 5^th December 1916.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123104805

 

7^th Battalion

 

Serving with the Colonial Office 2^nd Lieutenant G.L. Smith with seniority from the 26^th April 1917.

 

Shetland Companies

 

Serving attached to the 3^rd Battalion Captain A.J. Smith with seniority from the 13^th February 1917.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123104817

 

So as far as those sources go those look to be your choices.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Peter, fabulous research, thank you so much - you’ve given me a lot to go on here. I had no idea this level of detail was available.
I have no further evidence to offer other than, when the uniform came up for sale in around 2011,  Captain Smith’s set of Pattern 1908 web equipment was auctioned off at the same time. The set was in almost unissued condition, suggesting that maybe he didn’t see front line service, although there could be many other explanations for its condition.

Thanks again,

Pete

 

 

[PRC]

2 minutes ago, Pete_C said:

he set was in almost unissued condition, suggesting that maybe he didn’t see front line service,

If the Victory Medal and British War Medal ribbons are his then he saw service in a Theatre of War, (although not necessarily the front line), and the absence of a 1914 Star or 1914/15 Star Ribbon means that service in a Theatre of War began on or after the 1st January 1916.

If the divisional badges relate to the interwar period then possibly the officer concerned continued to serve part-time in the Territorial Force and so his records don't show up in the National Archive. There are other reasons why he may not have any records at the National Archive so it's not definative.

Of course the officer concerned may have been attached from a Regular Army Battalion or a War Service Battalion of the Gordon Highlanders, or even from another Regiment. Such individuals would normally appear in the Monthly List, (and the Quarterly List and the Annual List), under their parent units. I know in the past when long term attachments have come up it's been stated that the new unit cap badge would be worn, but I'm not sure about change of uniform - especially as officers had to buy their own. I'd have to defer to a forum guru like @FROGSMILE on that.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, PRC said:

If the Victory Medal and British War Medal ribbons are his then he saw service in a Theatre of War, (although not necessarily the front line), and the absence of a 1914 Star or 1914/15 Star Ribbon means that service in a Theatre of War began on or after the 1st January 1916.

If the divisional badges relate to the interwar period then possibly the officer concerned continued to serve part-time in the Territorial Force and so his records don't show up in the National Archive. There are other reasons why he may not have any records at the National Archive so it's not definative.

Of course the officer concerned may have been attached from a Regular Army Battalion or a War Service Battalion of the Gordon Highlanders, or even from another Regiment. Such individuals would normally appear in the Monthly List, (and the Quarterly List and the Annual List), under their parent units. I know in the past when long term attachments have come up it's been stated that the new unit cap badge would be worn, but I'm not sure about change of uniform - especially as officers had to buy their own. I'd have to defer to a forum guru like @FROGSMILE on that.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes Peter, you’re right that if an officer is ‘seconded’** to another regiment then he usually wears the insignia and working uniform of that regiment.  I cannot recall when it was introduced, but a uniform allowance was set up for those instances where the uniform was substantially different from that of the parent.  Interestingly the mess dress often remained that of the parent, as it’s cost couldn’t really be justified from the public purse.

**a lengthier category of attachment.

Edited 6 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE