jim_davies Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Wondered if anyone has any knowledge of this cemetery? I'm researching Pte Percy Oldham, 4th Lincs who is commemorated here. From the CWGC website I'm confused whether he has an actual grave or is commemorated by a special memorial. The website gives a grave/special memorial reference of Row E Grave 16 which is next to the grave of one of the soldiers killed alongside Percy (Parson in E 17). But in the notes section of his entry it mentions "special memorial". The two other members of the battalion killed in the same incident are buried in row b, graves 4 and 5. In the cemetry details it states: "The cemetery contains 102 burials and commemorations of the First World War. 19 of the burials are unidentified but there is a special memorial to one casualty known to be buried among them." However, Staff Sgt Benjamin Hartley would appear to be commorated by Special Memorial...so how is Percy commorated? Any ideas? Thanks, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 (edited) You should find that Percy Oldham has a grave - Row E Grave 16, as you say - and that the Sergeant is the only soldier with a Special Memorial in that cemetery. You may have "read something in" that isn't there. The CWGC website doesn't give a "Grave/Special Memorial Reference," but a "Grave/Memorial Reference." This is because commemorations may be by individual graves or by names on Memorials to the Missing, so in this section, details will be found of the location of the soldier's grave within the cemetery, or the location of his name on the memorial. Special Memorials are a special kind of gravestone and these are noted elsewhere is a soldier's CWGC entry, as in the entry for Sgt. Harley. There is no grave location for him, but a mention that he has a Special Memorial which will be placed away from the main grouping of the gravestones, possibly against the inside of the cemetery wall somewhere. There is indeed a reference to "Special Memorial" in Pte. Oldham's CWGC entry. I wonder if this is an error as it appears along with the family details, and John is certain that Sgt. Hartley is the only "Special Memorial" commemoration in the cemetery. Where's Terry Denham when you need him? Tom Edited 15 April , 2005 by Tom Morgan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Jim Benjamin Hartley was my great uncle and is, indeed, the only soldier in the cemetery commemorated on a special memorial. The inscription is to the effect that he is known to be buried in the cemetery. He may be one of the 19 "Known unto God" or his grave may simply have been lost. Another soldier from his unit was killed the same day and has a known grave. When I visited, I rather hoped that one of the graves either side of him mioght have been an unknown who I could imagine was Benjamin, but it was not to be. My article about my research into Benjamin's service is published on Tom's Hellfire Corner website (there's a link in his signature above). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Jim Benjamin Hartley was my great uncle ..................... My article about my research into Benjamin's service is published on Tom's Hellfire Corner website (there's a link in his signature above). John <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well you can blow me down with a feather. Small world indeed. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Perhaps we should start a "spooky coincidences" thread. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 , and John is certain that Sgt. Hartley is the only "Special Memorial" commemoration in the cemetery. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My "certainty" is based on the knowledge that "special memorials" are, in my experience, always separate from other headstones. And Benjamin's is the only separate one. It is, of course, possible that a "special" is amongst the others. I didnt closely examine all the headstones when I was there, but I did have a walk round and can't recall seeing one. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 My "certainty" is based on the knowledge that "special memorials" are, in my experience, always separate from other headstones. And Benjamin's is the only separate one. It is, of course, possible that a "special" is amongst the others. I didnt closely examine all the headstones when I was there, but I did have a walk round and can't recall seeing one. John <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Point taken, John. I know that there are some gravestones, placed normally among the other graves in rows, but with extra inscriptions like "Believed to be" or, "Known to be buried near this spot" but I don't know if these are counted as Special Memorials. I wonder if Pte. Oldham has one of these. It does definitely say "Special Memorial " in his CWGC entry. We need someone to go and have a look! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 16 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 16 April , 2005 Hi, It is certainly a small world. Recently I've come across a few different coincidences. If it wasn't for the "special memorial" mention in Percy's notes section I would be happy to assume that he's buried next to Frank Parsons, who died alongside him, and the two other Lincs lads closeby. All four appear to have buried two days after their deaths, "while the heavens wept', per a letter home to Parson's family. I think given John's knowledge on the subject that his great uncle has the only seperate special memorial at Hannescamps that the reference in Percy's entry could be a scanning issue. Should an answer not be forthcoming I might have a chance to check it out first hand during the summer. (Fingers crossed) Thanks. Jim PS-Tom, I remember a while back you were doing some research on "thankful villages", how's that going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 I will check the 'Special Memorial' reference but I suspect a clerical error. I will report back. All headstones with superscriptions are Special Memorials and they are classified into the following groupings. You can find some variation of the wording though (eg Churchyard or Chapelyard for Cemetery). Sp. Mem. A "Buried elsewhere in this cemetery" Sp. Mem. B "Believed to be buried in this cemetery" Sp. Mem. C "Buried near this spot" Sp. Mem. D "Believed to be............" Sp. Mem. E - This is known as a Kipling Memorial - The Kipling Memorial headstone is so called because the quotation from the Apocrypha (Ecclesiasticus 44, verse 13), "THEIR GLORY SHALL NOT BE BLOTTED OUT", which appears on the headstone was chosen by Rudyard Kipling. These headstones commemorate casualties whose graves in a particular cemetery were destroyed or who were known to be buried in a particular cemetery but the exact whereabouts within the cemetery was not recorded. Sp. Mem. F "Buried in ................ Cemetery" Not all such Special Memorials take the form of the standard CWGC headstone, particularly in the UK. They can have other shapes/sizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 Benjamin's is a combination of Type A (inscription is at top of headstone) and Type E (inscription is at bottom) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 Do not understand what you mean John. It is one or the other. Could you explain in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 PS-Tom, I remember a while back you were doing some research on "thankful villages", how's that going? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jim - here's a Link to the article with the results of the research so far. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 Do not understand what you mean John. It is one or the other. Could you explain in detail. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Terry If you have a look at the article on Hellfire Corner, there's a photo of the headstone. You'll see both inscriptions. Link is here John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 John This is a Special Memorial E. As I said, variations can be found but the list I gave above is the official one direct from CWGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 Terry Thanks for the info. Was there a reason for having two different styles, both of which record that someone is buried somewhere in the cemetery? If I've understood you correctly, both have the inscription "buried elsewhere in this cemetery", but Type E has the additioonal inscription at the bottom. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 Terry - sorry to join John in bombarding you with questions, but would a named gravestone marked as "Buried near this spot" be recorded as a Special Memorial in the registers? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 April , 2005 Share Posted 16 April , 2005 John I can't directly answer your question. I was informed that Type A was used for lost graves in the same cemetery and Type E for those lost elsewhere. Obviously your example does not fit this simple rule. I'll enquire further as there are probably exceptions. Tom The words 'Special Memorial' should appear in place of a grave reference in the CWGC database and any computer produced registers. It usually appeared in the printed registers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 16 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 16 April , 2005 Terry, Thanks for the additional info on Special Memorials, most interesting. Tom, Great article concerning the Thankful Villages, will email you. Enjoy the weekend, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 19 April , 2005 Share Posted 19 April , 2005 Jim As promised I have checked out Pte Oldham with CWGC and it seems that he has a normal grave and not a Special Memorial. The reference to a SM in the text is an error and has now been deleted. He is in Grave E.16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 19 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2005 Jim As promised I have checked out Pte Oldham with CWGC and it seems that he has a normal grave and not a Special Memorial. The reference to a SM in the text is an error and has now been deleted. He is in Grave E.16 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Terry, Thanks for clarifying this. Much appreciated. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 19 April , 2005 Share Posted 19 April , 2005 Thanks for answering my question about Special Memorials, Terry. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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