Missing from ancestry record card list? (H Brooks 3245 Notts and Derby)

[KBrooks]

I am trying to research a GW Medal I bought awarded to Pte H BROOKS 3245 of the NOTTS & DERBY regiment. Looking on Ancestry's medal card index I can only find two men with that service number and none with this surname....

Is anyone able to tell from the service number what unit he was in and point me in the right direction to track h8m down please?

 

[DavidOwen]

Welcome to the forum

He has surviving service papers available on FMP British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

If you had 3245 ticked as exact on Ancestry that is the problem, his other number was 72069 his MIC is at TNA here Medal card of Brooks, Harold Corps: Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment ... | The National Archives

If you sign in to TNA then the MIC is free

[KBrooks]

Thanks that is brilliant, I couldn't access Findmypast so went on ancestry for a change.....if only that had worked! Your quick response is much appreciated 👍🏻

[GWF1967]

2 hours ago, KBrooks said:

Thanks that is brilliant, I couldn't access Findmypast so went on ancestry for a change.....if only that had worked! Your quick response is much appreciated 👍🏻

Ancestry index men according to the last number/regiment they served with. You can usually find records on FMP using any number/regiment. 

[KBrooks]

Thanks I'll bear that in mind 👍🏻

[chaz]

using 72069 he has three pension cards on Fold3, may be able to get them via ancestry account. also a RDC number 70643

https://www.fold3.com/search?docQuery=(environment:(origin:regiment),fieldedKeywords:!((texts:!('brooks,+harold'),type:full-name),(texts:!('72069'),type:military.service-number)),filters:!((type:place,values:!((label:United+Kingdom,value:rel.62149),(label:United+States+of+America,value:rel.148838))),(type:military.conflict,values:!((label:World+War+I,value:World+War+I)))))

tbere is reference on one card to try BROOKES

also numbered 61559

Edited 26 October , 2023 by chaz

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

You can get the Medal Index Card free on Ancestry as long as you have created a free account. Here is his:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2046244:1262?_phsrc=bDw1330&_phstart=successSource&gsln=Brooks+&ml_rpos=1&queryId=4e6dfbab5209126743381b351912252e

[KBrooks]

Thanks for this Chaz and Dai Bach y Sowldiwr, thats really helpful 👍🏻 can you advise what information is usually available on a pension record please?

[chaz]

mainly due to injury or death, the pension is calculated (another will be able to give a more precise breakdown), 

the cards will contain name of dependant, address from records, (may not be current at the time), and regiment and numbers.

in the event of death, there is a ledger which is from a book with others named whereas the cards are for the individual.

one card, does have lines for the reason , eg GSW or medical reason.

it was a combination of looking at all available cards/documents that came up with different numbers.

[KBrooks]

Thanks Chaz 👍🏻

[Matlock1418]

Welcome to GWF

MIC for a BWM & VM shows:

• Notts & Derby, 3245
• Royal Defence Corps, 72069

Disability pension index card shows:

• Royal Defence Corps, 72069
• 70643 [seems quite likely a later N&D No]

Disability pension ledger page 1 shows:

• The front shows b. 1887, single, discharged 4.4.19, 12 Coldwell St, Winksworth, GSW Rt Arm, attrib. Neurasthenia, attrib Reverse shows at 19.11.20 20% disability receiving 8/- pw.  Final award at 15-19%, 7/6pw for 104 wks from 4/10/22

Disability pension ledger page 2 [a brief duplicate referring back to the other PLP] shows:

• Front alternatively cites Loss of Rt Eye, GSW Rt Arm reverse is blank

M

Edit: One might question the Loss of Rt Eye entry as the loss of an eye / loss of vision from one eye would have typically have been permanent and would have consequentially resulted in a permanent 50% award.  That said there were reports of 'Shell Shocked' and neurasthenic patients exhibiting blindness, without physical cause, which proved temporary and who recovered their sight in due course [a diagnosis of temporary psychological condition was sometimes arrived at in such cases]

Edited 29 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[KBrooks]

Thanks Matlock1418 that is excellent! and much appreciated..... I am assuming the Neurasthenia is down to shell shock - it would be fascinating to know how he lost his eye......more research needed I think...

 

Sorry - just saw the comment at the bottom of the post that is really useful info .... perhaps as you say the two conditions were linked.....I found yesterday that Harold was my third cousin twice removed so all the more interesting to delve into this case

Edited 29 October , 2023 by KBrooks
Additional paragraph added

[Matlock1418]

34 minutes ago, KBrooks said:

I am assuming the Neurasthenia is down to shell shock

Though "Shell Shock", was initially utilised in 1915 [and it was later written as such in quotes in the 1922 War Office Committee of Enquiry report into the subject], the use of the term was later frowned upon and its use was prohibited, by 1917 I think.  The causation of the condition being so described commonly had absolutely nothing to do with shells and could occur in the UK and away from the battlefield.  It was then considered, and lately continues to be considered, as a range of phychological conditions - some of which had striking physical manifestations even if there was not a physical cause [many manifestations then apparently resembling hysteria in women!! - That men could possibly suffer similarly that condition was considered a quite horrific idea back then!!!] - generally then considered brought on by earlier historical persoanal background and by more recent circumstances. 'Emotional' and 'Commotional' versions [the latter from physical causes - including the possibility of disturbance by pressure from shells and their explosions] were both discussed in the CoE. The use of the term was probably more commonly used for Other Ranks. 

Neurasthenia [note no quotes] was commonly used as an alternative term in later times and rather more commonly used for officers [as so much more refined and less of a stigma!] and it was later used at the time of disability pensions.  Though "Shell Shock" does appear on some pension records at WFA/Fold3 it seems to me to be less frequently used and Neurasthenia also, and more frequently ,gets used for OR too.

NYD (N) [Not yet Diagnosed (Neurological)] appears in many later service records where the condition could be "Shell Shock"/pending its proper description - they were keeping their options open in the early stages of diagnosis and treatment.

More accurate descriptions and diagnoses as neurological conditions were attempted thereafter but there use was challenging and "Shell Shock" continued to be occasionally used and had rather stuck to the end of the war and beyond [and the term and impression still remains stuck in the public vocabulary and mind even today].

Some of the treatments used then sound quite physically & emotionally horrific and some seem completely unethical these days.  I guess they were doing their best and learning on the job [on an unimagined and unimaginably massive scale]

Of course the sort of physico/psychological conditions encountered then have later been described as Combat Shock and PTSD and their treatment continues and likely develops to this day and beyond.  Here's hoping for a good outcome for those so now affected - I'm thinking of you lads & lasses.

Sorry if that's considered a long answer to a short question.

M

[KBrooks]

Appreciate the time to respond, I recall in Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves he gives some good descriptions as a sufferer himself and he also mentions his friend S Sassoon explaining in passing the different approaches to officers and other ranks.

[Matlock1418]

On 29/10/2023 at 18:36, KBrooks said:

I recall in Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves he gives some good descriptions as a sufferer himself and he also mentions his friend S Sassoon explaining in passing the different approaches to officers and other ranks.

Funny that you should mention GTAT and Graves, but the 2nd RWF's MO, Capt Dunn, appears in the Report of the War Office Committee of Enquiry Into "Shell-Shock" [1922] - some quite startling accounts & opinions by him and others in the CoE!  Dunn's also the author of The War the Infantry Knew - though that isn't really a treatise on "Shell Shock".

If you are/get interested in the subject then I suggest reading the CoE and also reading a modern review of the topic from both british and german cases/perspectives, They Called It Shell Shock: Combat Stress in the First World War [2016] by Stephanie Linden.  And there is plenty of other materials from both past and more recent periods - and it is not all about War Poets.

"Shell Shock" was a startling condition that back then to many seemed to leap out fresh from the GW - it was then/probably is now so poorly understood by the general public, though they are still so swift to use the term, such has been its unfortunate, enduring and popularist legacy.

But I've gone on again ...

M

Edited 1 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[KBrooks]

Thanks, generally an avid reader of WW1 soldiers diaries and accounts so I will add those to my too read list, I get through them all in the end 👍🏻