KIWIWAYNE Posted 23 October , 2023 Share Posted 23 October , 2023 Hi, Am researching Lieutenant George Harrison, R.M. national archives record ADM159/144/636 and ADM196/99/192. He was born at North Shields on 10.9.1989 and appointed Lieutenant on 14.10.18. He had held various appointments in the Royal Marines during WW1. I have been unable to find his commissioning appointment in the London Gazette and wondered if anyone would help me find his page(es) reference numbers in the Gazette. Thanks and kind regards, Wayne Attachments compliments of the National Archives ADM-159-144-636.pdf ADM-196-99-192.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 23 October , 2023 Share Posted 23 October , 2023 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30973/page/12600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 23 October , 2023 Share Posted 23 October , 2023 (edited) 59 minutes ago, KIWIWAYNE said: He had held various appointments in the Royal Marines during WW1. He was among the first large intake of about 55 men enlisted for the RM Submarine Miners in early February 1915 and he spent the rest of his WW1 service with the RMSM, probably at the HQ in Newcastle-on-Tyne (but borne on the books of HQ Chatham Division RMLI). https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=521&skin=2021 Edited 23 October , 2023 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 23 October , 2023 Share Posted 23 October , 2023 1 hour ago, KIWIWAYNE said: He was born at North Shields His ADM 159 gives his p.o.b. as Choppington, Northumberland - about twelve miles north of the Tyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIWIWAYNE Posted 24 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2023 Hi "Horatio" Thank you very much for the information provided above. He must have taken a special role / position in this Royal Marines Unit. There is not much information in the databases but will see what else I can find out about his service and this special unit. kind regards, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 (edited) His operational role in the RMSM is not detailed in his records, nor are the bases where he served. His civilian employment as a clerk inclines me to think that he would have been employed in HQs in administrative rather than in technical positions. He was entered in the rank of sergeant and advanced to colour sergeant after three months. On 1 Jan 1917 he was promoted to company sergeant major, although this is not noted in his ADM 196 record as an officer. His promotion to lieutenant may coincide with the merger of the RMSM with the 5th RM Battalion at that time in 1918. Edited 25 October , 2023 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 According to Dec 1918 Navy List his seniority as Tempy Lieut. was 14 October 1918. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIWIWAYNE Posted 25 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2023 Thanks for the additional information. George was promoted one month before the end of WW1. I wonder if he stayed on afterwards though would likely have been on reserve duty till 1919 or 1920? Found interesting photograph attached - no copyright issues known. WP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 It’s very unlikely that George Harrison saw any further service in the Royal Marines (or Reserve) after his demobilisation on 4th May 1919. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 'Man on mine' image - is thre a caption or any provenance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 An often reproduced image, usually credited to WW2. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 Thanks, @KizmeRD. I thought the hint at a connection with the RMSM was very dubious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 The RMLI submarine miners were formed were formed in February 1915, their primary role was the defence of Scapa Flow and Cromarty through the use of an observed electronically detonated mine field. They weren’t responsible for laying minefields, or for performing mine clearance operations. The man on the mine in the picture is sitting atop a British Mk. XVII contact mine which began development sometime towards the end of WW1, but I don’t believe that it actually entered service until a few years after (and was widely used during WW2). The RMSM’s utilised electronically triggered mines fired from shore (not contact mines). MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallace2 Posted 25 October , 2023 Share Posted 25 October , 2023 A mixed detachment of RN/RM Submarine Miners were based in Broughty Ferry in Angus to defend the River Tay and the port of Dundee in WW1. An earlier topic on Submarine Miners exists in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 26 October , 2023 Share Posted 26 October , 2023 His promotion to Lieutenant also appears to tie-in with the enlistments of a new batch of ‘Special Home Coast Defence’ marines, all entered as Chatham Short Service men numbered 3278-3345. I’m guessing that his appointment as an officer had something to do with the training of these men at the RMSM Depot in Newcastle. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIWIWAYNE Posted 26 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2023 ww1 royal marines submarine miners - Search Images (bing.com) Above is the link to the photograph on bing search. On further checking it is likely ww2 era - there is another one similar but taken from a little further away showing another Marine. WP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 26 October , 2023 Share Posted 26 October , 2023 I think it is important not to conflate those men entered in mid-1918 “SPECIAL FOR HOME/COASTAL DEFENCE” with those entered “FOR RMSM”. They were different cohorts. The ‘Coastal/Home Defence recruits’ were not (unlike all he RMSM recruits) entered only into Chatham Division RMLI. For example, between June and August 1918 more than 300 ‘Home/Coastal Defence’ men were entered into Plymouth Division RMLI (Short Service). This compares with about250 similarly entered into Chatham Division in mid-1918. Portsmouth Div probably entered another 300. I suspect (but cannot find chapter and verse) that these 800+ men were destined for the short-lived 5th RM Battalion, which was formed “…for anti-submarine and anti-aircraft duties in the Dover Patrol…” [Blumberg, Chapter 7, where he also quotes a strength of 863 ORs]. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=118&skin=2021&q1=coastal defence I can find no evidence that the Chatham cohort 3278(S) to 3345(S), quoted by @KizmeRD, were entered for ‘Home/Coastal’. Rather, my notes show that the majority were clearly entered for RMSM. The last Chatham entry for ‘Home/Coastal’ was 3254(S) on 10 August 1918 (similar to Plymouth Div) but recruitment into RMSM (Chatham Div) continued until the Armistice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 26 October , 2023 Share Posted 26 October , 2023 16 minutes ago, horatio2 said: I think it is important not to conflate those men entered in mid-1918 “SPECIAL FOR HOME/COASTAL DEFENCE” with those entered “FOR RMSM”. They were different cohorts. Apologies, I was mislead by statements made on Royal Marines website https://www.rmhistorical.com/images/RM Register Numbers.pdf Obviously Bridget Spiers (the RM Museum archivist) was herself a little confused by the complicated maze of RM Registry numbers, and this was replicated in Major Donald’s article (specifically the paragraph concerning RM submarine miners). MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 26 October , 2023 Share Posted 26 October , 2023 I'm afraid there are sveral unhelpful pooh-traps in the RM registers. You are very kind to highlight a new one! To be fair, Alistair McDonald's article is useful in many ways. The quoted register in ADM 159/211 appears to be the only one that lists "Royal Marines Special Home Coast Defence" as a cohort. Why the RMO/TNA chose to create this single ledger under that title for just 67 men in Portsmouth Div Short Service (3278(S) to 3346(S) - 3324(S) was not used and is missing) is unclear. Another 250-300 (est) Portsmouth 'Home/Coastal' men were not registered separately in this way. He was also incorrect to say "They served with the RMSM". RMSM and 5 RM Bn.were quite distinct units, albeit with overlapping roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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