William Riley, Worcestershire Hussars Yeomanry

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

Hi all

     Looking through photos at an antique fair yesterday, I stumbled across this nice portrait for a couple of pound. For that price I thought it might be worth a little research for fun. 
     I assumed the number on the back might be a service number but had no luck finding a matching name. Can I ask what other people think the number says? 80607?

     Thanks in advance!

[DavidOwen]

You would probably have more success from the uniform and cap badge, perhaps @FROGSMILE might be able to assist.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

You would probably have more success from the uniform and cap badge, perhaps @FROGSMILE might be able to assist.

Queen’s Own Worcestershire Hussars Yeomanry (part-time auxiliary citizen cavalry mobilised for war).

The number more often refers to the photographic studios plate reference number.

Edited 22 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[DavidOwen]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Worcestershire Hussars Yeomanry (part-time auxiliary citizen cavalry mobilised for war).

The number more often refers to the photographic studios plate reference number.

Thank you!

So we have two possible candidates (courtesy FMP)

There may of course be more.

[PRC]

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 34 year old Horace Henry Dudley, a Photographic Artist, who was recorded as the married head of the family at 26 Birmingham Road, West Bromwich. Horace is recorded as an employer, so potentially may have a separate studio. And yes, he was born Dudley!

In fact he was to be found still living with his parents on the 1901 Census of England & Wales at 93 Queens Cross, Dudley. He gave his occupation as Photographer - on own account. He was not working from home.

Here's a link to an article on him, although unfortunately the web links to the illustrating pictures, including one of an unknown member of the "Worcestershire Regiment" are all broken.  Looks like there were several studios trading under that name that he owned. https://www.pressreader.com/uk/black-country-bugle/20180725/281818579621903

As far as the MiC records are concerned looks like there are potentially two William Riley's but of course there could be others with no service medal entitlement or claim to a Silver War Badge.

Private 3128 William Riley, Worcestershire Yeomanry, subsequently 110530 Machine Gun Corps Cavalry. Victory Medal and British War Medal.

Private 3092 William F. Riley, Worcestershire Yeomanry subsequently 206788 Bedfordshire Regiment. British War Medal only.  As William Francis Riley he has surviving service records. Unfortunately don't subscribe so can't see them but Familysearch have indexed him as aged 34 when he enlisted in 1915 and resident Worcester, discharged in 1919.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 22 October , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 34 year old Horace Henry Dudley, a Photographic Artist, who was recorded as the married head of the family at 26 Birmingham Road, West Bromwich. Horace is recorded as an employer, so potentially may have a separate studio. And yes, he was born Dudley!

In fact he was to be found still living with his parents on the 1901 Census of England & Wales at 93 Queens Cross, Dudley. He gave his occupation as Photographer - on own account. He was not working from home.

Here's a link to an article on him, although unfortunately the web links to the illustrating pictures, including one of an unknown member of the "Worcestershire Regiment" are all broken.  Looks like there were several studios trading under that name that he owned. https://www.pressreader.com/uk/black-country-bugle/20180725/281818579621903

As far as the MiC records are concerned looks like there are potentially two William Riley's but of course there could be others with no service medal entitlement or claim to a Silver War Badge.

Private 3128 William Riley, Worcestershire Yeomanry, subsequently 110530 Machine Gun Corps Cavalry. Victory Medal and British War Medal.

Private 3092 William F. Riley, Worcestershire Yeomanry subsequently 206788 Bedfordshire Regiment. British War Medal only.  As William Francis Riley he has surviving service records. Unfortunately don't subscribe but can't see them Family search have indexed him as aged 34 when he enlisted in 1915 and resident Worcester, discharged in 1919.

Cheers,
Peter

I was going to suggest only a substantial gap in age might help separate them.  The man in the image certainly doesn’t seem of the age 34, so probably the other fellow assuming that he’s in very late teens or early 20s.  Ergo Worcestershire Yeomanry and MGC Cav.

Edited 22 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[DavidOwen]

I have moved this to soldiers as probably more appropriate now.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

I have moved this to soldiers as probably more appropriate now.

Makes sense David.  Can you change the thread title too, as it does seem a particularly obscure one?

Edited 22 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

Thanks team. Amazing work as always from you all. Time to start digging around ancestry 

[IPT]

What do you think of this fellow?

(Ancestry)

 

[PRC]

28 minutes ago, IPT said:

What do you think of this fellow?

Does this make it any easier?

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

My heart would like to say yes but my head keeps noticing little discrepancies - ear shape, relative position of the ears on head, eyebrow shape, chin, (is that a dimple on the chin of the soldier or just a flaw in the picture?), lips, eyelids and distance to eyebrows, nose shape, (is the tip of the nose on the Ancestry sourced picture really that shape or is that a flaw on the print?).

Of course some of this could be down to the angle the head is being held at, the expression on display, the quality of the print and the effect of the passage of time on the two men.

So others may see it differently.

Cheers,
Peter

[IPT]

Hmm... a lot of similarities.

The man on the right was born 17th March 1895. He married Beatrice Elsie Parry in 1922 in Hereford, and had a son, Charles Michael Parry, born 1922 in King's Norton, another son, Bryan A Riley, born 1928 in Hereford. On the 1939 register, he was a theatre(?) manager in Hereford.  Beatrice died in 1976 in Swindon. A family tree has William's death registered in Chippenham in 1956, aged 61.

[IPT]

Another tree has him born in Newcastle.  In 1901, he was an inmate at St Vincent's Industrial School, in Newcastle, and, in 1911, was living in West Gorton, Manchester, with his widowed mother. 

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, IPT said:

The man on the right was born 17th March 1895.

So could have been registered either Q1 or Q2 1895. Assuming that birth was in England & Wales and that William Riley, (no middle name(s) was his name at birth then that leaves 14 individuals and while there are possibles in Lancashire,Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, nothing really in the Black Country area.

12 minutes ago, IPT said:

He married Beatrice Elsie Parry in 1922 in Hereford

Could be a total co-incidence but the 1921 Census of England & Wales has a William Riley, born Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland c1895 and who was recorded in the All Saints Parish of Hereford. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 16 year old William Riley, born Newcastle-upon-Tyne and an Assistant in an Earthenware Warehouse, who was recorded living at 5 William St., West Gorton, Manchester. This was the household of his widowed mother, Ellen Riley, aged 48 and born Dundee.

I see your ahead of me

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Does this make it any easier?

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

My heart would like to say yes but my head keeps noticing little discrepancies - ear shape, relative position of the ears on head, eyebrow shape, chin, (is that a dimple on the chin of the soldier or just a flaw in the picture?), lips, eyelids and distance to eyebrows, nose shape, (is the tip of the nose on the Ancestry sourced picture really that shape or is that a flaw on the print?).

Of course some of this could be down to the angle the head is being held at, the expression on display, the quality of the print and the effect of the passage of time on the two men.

So others may see it differently.

Cheers,
Peter

Personally I feel positive that they are the same man.

[Agnes R]

Both photos are indeed of William Riley, my grandad, born Newcastle 1895, died Malmesbury (nr Chippenham.) 1956. My late dad Bryan’s handwriting appears on the back of the photo.

William’s third son, my lovely Uncle Patrick, died this New Year’s Day.
 

William also had a daughter from an affair. She would be about 84 now. Her mum later emigrated to US with serviceman from a base near Hereford. 

William did his service with Worcs Yeomanry in Middle East. After the war was over, his horse won quite a big race (maybe in Damascus?) and he sold it to a local before the return home.

He became a talent scout then theatre manager for the Maddox family when his sisters married in.  After that, he was a cinema manager. Highlight was 2000 seater Bristol Odeon (now Lidl!) 

William was a good-looker, a grafter, certainly a charmer. Not the easiest dad and husband no doubt, but everyone loved him. 

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

8 hours ago, Agnes R said:

Both photos are indeed of William Riley, my grandad, born Newcastle 1895, died Malmesbury (nr Chippenham.) 1956. My late dad Bryan’s handwriting appears on the back of the photo.

Wow Agnes! Thanks for commenting!

Would you like this photo returned to your family? I’d be happy to post it to you if you want to message me your address

[Agnes R]

Thanks very much, that would be lovely if you don’t want it. 

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Agnes R said:

Thanks very much, that would be lovely if you don’t want it. 

How did the family come to lose the picture in the first place Agnes?  I assume you’d seen it before given your post and the fact of your dad’s handwriting.

Edited 18 January by FROGSMILE

[Agnes R]

Hi there

I’ve seen this picture in the past (and I would recognise my dad’s handwriting always).

my uncle’s  house was cleared last year when he went into a nursing home. My dad used to refer to “the family chest”, which his brother kept very close hold of. My dad said it contained tonnes of interesting history and photos, and a few family secrets too!

I imagine that that chest, or more likely some of its contents, went off with the house clearance. 

I would be interested to know which antiques fair the picture was found in because I might pop along to the next one and see if I can spot any more family history.

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Agnes R said:

Hi there

I’ve seen this picture in the past (and I would recognise my dad’s handwriting always).

my uncle’s  house was cleared last year when he went into a nursing home. My dad used to refer to “the family chest”, which his brother kept very close hold of. My dad said it contained tonnes of interesting history and photos, and a few family secrets too!

I imagine that that chest, or more likely some of its contents, went off with the house clearance. 

I would be interested to know which antiques fair the picture was found in because I might pop along to the next one and see if I can spot any more family history.

 

That’s interesting and quite sad.  I’m a bit surprised that no one ever notified you, especially given that you’ve been interested enough in the family military history to make a posting here.  It must be galling to have lost so much family history that seems to mean something to you.  There are some families that simply couldn’t care less, but you don’t seem like that.

Edited 18 January by FROGSMILE

[JOVE23]

What a bittersweet update. I look forward to seeing this young man's photograph returned to his family so it can be hung in honour.

[Agnes R]

They are caring people - they were probably overcome by “stuff” when clearing the house, never an easy job.

 

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

On 18/01/2024 at 22:27, Agnes R said:

They are caring people - they were probably overcome by “stuff” when clearing the house, never an easy job.

 

Hi Agnes

          I've sent you a message on here about getting this photo back to you just in case you didn't see it. And the antique fair (which is usually only about 15 sellers) happens regularly in the Cattle Market car park in Bath and is named the Bath Saturday Antique and Flea Market. 

          Hope to hear from you soon