Most accurate list of Red Baron's victims

[Perth Digger]

Sorry if this has been debated before, but should Norman Franks, Hal Giblin & Nigel McCrery's Under the Guns of the Red Baron be viewed as the most accurate list of Richthofen's victims? Which other lists are taken seriously? Is 80 the canonical number?

Thanks

Mike

[nils d]

I would say that Under the Guns (UTG) is the accepted list.lve not seen any contradiction to any of their attributions. I wouldn't look anywhere else.

[Errol Martyn]

If I were you I would check out posts by Russ Gannon on The Aerodrome Forum. Some of these throw serious doubt on some of the Baron's claims.

I also have another book by Franks and Giblin that has so many errors (regarding entries for New Zealanders) as to cast serious doubt on the research ability of these authors.

Errol

[Perth Digger]

Thank you Nils and Errol. 

Mike

[alex revell]

Yes, I'm afraid that books by Norman and his associate authors  do contain an awful lot of errors. Alex Imrie wrote a devastating - even cruel -  review of one of their books. pointing out fundamental  errors. It's a long time ago now, but memory says it was something called Windsock. I have it somewhere in my files but goodness knows where. I'll have search. A review in C&C Vol 30 No.1 is kinder but still lists numerous errors.  See below.

In defense of Norman et al they did produce an awful lot of books between them; perhaps that was the trouble.  By accident, I was looking for something entirely different, I stumbled across one recently: a casualty they attributed to a RFC squadron that was not operational in France until 18 months later.

Of course, like us all they were at the mercy of the publisher and his copy editor and proofreader, or if  they even employed such.  

On the question of the 80 victories of Richthofen. Russ Gannon has carried out a highly detailed study of these. His findings astonished him. He even once referred Richthofen to me as 'the German Billy Bishop.' 

 I think  the reason  for the number of books about the GAS and Richthofen is that they are sure to be published. Dear old Jack Beaumont, sadly missed, of Aviation Bookshop, advised  me many years ago, when I was researching the history of 56 Squadron, that I was wasting my time, that I would never find a publisher. He said the only certainties were books about 'The Red Baron'  and the Battle of Britain.  Thanks to American enthusiast Jack Herris, he was not quite right :-)     

 

 

[alex revell]

Alex Imrie's reviews.

 

 

[Perth Digger]

Thanks very much, Alex, for taking the time to supply the review pages. I must admit to being surprised that Franks did not read German, an essential skill, I'd have thought, for someone writing specifically about German units. I have always regretted that, staying at school a year after taking A Levels because I was too young for university, I avoided an O Level German class by taking a job (well paid) as a part-time school caretaker! 

I have been trawling through Russ Gannon's Richthofen threads on The Aerodrome. Much more bad-tempered than the usual threads on GWF and also much more difficult to follow. His main point as far as I can make out is that many of Richthofen's claims were really achieved by multiple pilots and should, as in the RFC system, be shared. Also, a few claims are just wrong, in that the planes escaped. I think I may print out all his threads and go through them systematically. 

I'll just add this as it will explain my original question about Franks. The data is based on his book. The results are of no importance, really, but they may not have been noted before.

Mike