Regiment identification please

[Allan1892]

Can anyone identify the regiment of this young man please?

@FROGSMILE -- any idea from please?

Edited 20 October , 2023 by Allan1892

[Alan24]

Looking at the collar badge, could it be Liverpool Scottish TF?

[Michelle Young]

Definitely TF, with a 3 part shoulder title. 

[Allan1892]

36 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Looking at the collar badge, could it be Liverpool Scottish TF?

If it is the young man that I think it is, he never left his home county of Aberdeenshire.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

Can anyone identify the regiment of this young man please?

@FROGSMILE -- any idea from please?

Gordon Highlanders.  The collar badge a Bengal Tiger.

Edited 20 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Gordon Highlanders.  The collar badge a Bengal Tiger.

Thank you Frogsmile, your conclusion ties in nicely with the family's thoughts.

I can see the tiger on his collar now you point it out.

Edited 20 October , 2023 by Allan1892

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Thank you Frogsmile, your conclusion ties in nicely with the family's thoughts.

I can see the tiger on his collar now you point it out.

The facings on the doublet were yellow but appear a darker shade because of orthochromatic film effects.

Edited 20 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

Excellent image of the tunic, thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

On 20/10/2023 at 10:47, Allan1892 said:

Excellent image of the tunic, thank you.

I forgot to mention that the tent in the background indicates that he was at annual summer training camp, the nearest thing that young working men got to a holiday in those days**. Each working day ended at mid afternoon so that the men could leave camp and socialise (often to flirt with local girls) and even enjoy some beer.  For leaving camp they had to wear walking-out-dress and were usually inspected at the guard tent next to the entrance, where they also booked out##.  It is that dress which you can see in the photo.

**the loss of that incentive to join due to widespread social change has definitely affected the attractiveness of joining the army reserve.

##this was to keep track of where everyone was and ensure that an alarm could be raised if someone did not report back in.  NCOs were encouraged to keep an eye on those having a drink at local hostelries so as not to bring the unit into disrepute, as the camping grounds were repeatedly used by the TF and a unit would be sure to return.  It was far easier to be remembered for something bad than for something good.

Edited 21 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

Is he missing a tunic button (second position from top)?

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, RussT said:

Is he missing a tunic button (second position from top)?

Russ

Yes Russ, either that, or in getting dressed (which was a faff in highland dress) forgot to fasten it. 

Edited 21 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

On 21/10/2023 at 10:27, RussT said:

Is he missing a tunic button (second position from top)?

Russ

I think it is not missing, but rather covered in black cloth as a sign of mourning.  It was a common tradition in the ranks to wrap the second button down in this way for a few days after the loss of a family member.

A search here on the Forum should throw up images of some clearer examples.

e.g. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/302686-help-with-uniform-identification-needed/

 

Mark

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I think it is not missing, but rather covered in black cloth as a sign of mourning.  It was a common tradition in the ranks to wrap the second button down in this way for a few days after the loss of a family member.

A search here on the Forum should throw up images of some clearer examples.

e.g. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/302686-help-with-uniform-identification-needed/

 

Mark

Always possible on a doublet rendered so darkly by the photographic process that the black covered button isn’t apparent.  It seems less likely though with men wearing full dress at annual camp, as such colourful dress became very rare after 1914 in a wartime army with the TF mobilised and largely dressed in khaki SD.  I suppose it could perhaps relate to an early casualty of the regular BEF though.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

3 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I think it is not missing, but rather covered in black cloth as a sign of mourning.

Thanks - that does seem to be a credible explanation - and it would perhaps be too much of a coincidence that the second button down just happened to be missing given that, as you say, the second button down was the one chosen for being blackened for such a purpose.

Supplementary questions therefore: Was the wearing of a blackened (mourning) button on the second button down "regulated"? Or was it an informal albeit perhaps traditional mode of attire? Was permission required to wear/display one?

Russ

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, RussT said:

Thanks - that does seem to be a credible explanation - and it would perhaps be too much of a coincidence that the second button down just happened to be missing given that, as you say, the second button down was the one chosen for being blackened for such a purpose.

Supplementary questions therefore: Was the wearing of a blackened (mourning) button on the second button down "regulated"? Or was it an informal albeit perhaps traditional mode of attire? Was permission required to wear/display one?

Russ

 

This has been covered quite a few times over the decades Russ as one might expect for the forum given its longevity.  Mourning etiquette and policy was and still is laid down in King’s/Queen’s Regulations for the Army (recently changed to Tri-Service).  Mourning bands were and are permitted with special protocols of who and when.  Mourning buttons have never been explicitly permitted.  As a practice they seem to have civilian origins and date back to Queen Victoria’s overlong period of mourning her Prince Consort, Albert, and the generally common observance of mourning among Victorian and Edwardian families that involved black clothing, veils, and even jewellery (one English town became very wealthy from the proceeds of black gemstones).  As regards the mourning button, I have scoured accessible regulations over many years now and never yet found any official reference to them, whether at War Office level, or even local administrative orders.  Ergo quite how it became accepted practice to cover the second button specifically is unclear.  An important point is that black button mourning was an individual activity and wearing it on a formal parade involving a formed body of men representing their regiment and service it would automatically breach regulations as being in contravention with what was laid down concerning arm bands.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

Many thanks for that full and very interesting summary of the subject - and its general context.

As you say, I had indeed assumed that the subject had already been covered but my query was so specific the search function just wasn't able to assist effectively. Searching e.g. on "black button" does return, as expected, lots of hits (115 in fact) but I was too lazy  to go through all of those threads in the hope that at least one (or more) had the all the answers to my queries.

Regards

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, RussT said:

Many thanks for that full and very interesting summary of the subject - and its general context.

As you say, I had indeed assumed that the subject had already been covered but my query was so specific the search function just wasn't able to assist effectively. Searching e.g. on "black button" does return, as expected, lots of hits (115 in fact) but I was too lazy  to go through all of those threads in the hope that at least one (or more) had the all the answers to my queries.

Regards

Russ

I understand Russ.  A more focused search term would be “mourning button” which brings up just 7-pages. https://www.greatwarforum.org/search/?&q=“”Mourning Button””&page=1&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy

Edited 8 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

In his British Uniforms ... of the Great War book, John Bodsworth references a War Office letter from July 1918:

Mourning wearing of, by Non-Commissioned Officers and men.
The practice by Non-Commissioned Officers and men of covering the second button of the service dress jacket with black material as a symbol of mourning is irregular and will cease forthwith.

Several hunts over the years for the original document have so far failed to bear fruit.  I've gone right through the A&Q diaries for GHQ and First Army, as well as several Corps A&Q diaries, with no luck.  From John's citation, it looks like he found it in Routine Orders for Eastern Command dated 03 Aug 1918.

If anyone has copies of the AOs and ACIs for Jul/Aug 1918, it could be worth a look there.

 

Mark