Russians in France

[healdav]

I have just come across a reference to Russian officers being in France before the start of the war and trying to (presumably; the document does not say) to cross Germany to get to Russia before the war started.

It seems most peculiar. Does anyone know anything about this?

[Loopgraaf]

I know that there is a Russian grave near Arras at Faubour d'Amiens Cemetery, easy to find, it is on the far right when you enter the cemetery. 

Webmatters : Faubourg-d'Amiens Cemetery, Arras

On internet you can find more about Russian at Westfront. But maybe somebody here knows more and have better information. 

 

Edited 18 October , 2023 by Loopgraaf

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, healdav said:

I have just come across a reference to Russian officers being in France before the start of the war and trying to (presumably; the document does not say) to cross Germany to get to Russia before the war started.

It seems most peculiar. Does anyone know anything about this?

I’m unaware of anything prewar, although I imagine that there were probably some Russian officers, both on leave in France, and perhaps engaged in collaborative activities given the existence of the formal alliance with France.  It seems entirely feasible that some of these would have tried to return to Russia via various means.

Later on there was also a relatively small “Russian Expeditionary Force”.  The Russian Expeditionary Force in France and in Macedonia (“Brigades russes en France et en Macédoine” in French and “Russkij èkspedicionnyj korpus” in Russian) was an assembled force of four brigades (approximately 45,000 men) sent to the Western and Macedonian Fronts by the Russian Empire to fight alongside the French army in 1916.

After the Russian Revolution in 1917, the brigades underwent several mutinies against Russian officers and French authorities.

 

Edited 18 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Mikhail]

Hello!

I didn’t hear anything specific about the officers in France before the start of the First World War, but I read the memoirs of Carl Gustav Mannerheim, the future leader of Finland, and then a Major-General of the Russian Guards Cavalry.
He recalled:

“In the summer of 1914, a few days after the assassination of the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Franz Ferdinand, and his wife in Sarajevo, I went to Wiesbaden for treatment. A tense situation reigned in Germany. Every day one could observe how the war psychosis was growing in society, which found more and more open expression in hostility towards guests from Russia.

Returning to Warsaw, I drove through Berlin. Since I had a few hours between trains, I decided to use the time to look at the horses. I visited a horse dealer whom I had long considered one of the best in Europe - he traded in excellent Irish and German horses. I was surprised to see that the stables were practically empty. Woltman, the horse dealer, greeted me cordially and said: “Sorry, Mr. General, you should have come yesterday before I sent one hundred and fifty horses to the army.” Amazingly, the German army, which had previously paid only 1,200 marks per horse, was now able to purchase a considerable number of quality horses at a price of about 5,000 marks each. I told Woltman about this, and he smiled slyly and replied: “Whoever wants to fight must be ready to pay.” This got me thinking.
I arrived in Warsaw on July 22 and, after staying in the Polish capital for two days, I went to the camps located outside the city."

Perhaps some Russian officers in France found themselves in a similar situation and managed to return to Russia through Germany before the official entry of both powers into the war, like Mannerheim?

[Mikhail]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

In this photo - Major General Nikolai Aleksandrovich Lokhvitsky, commander of the 1st Special Infantry Brigade in France.

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, Mikhail said:

In this photo - Major General Nikolai Aleksandrovich Lokhvitsky, commander of the 1st Special Infantry Brigade in France.

Hello Mikhail,

Thank you for the information.

[James A Pratt III]

There was a future Russian WW I ace in France at the start of the war who did serve for awhile with the French Army at the front. He then recieved pilot training before he went back to Russia.

There was also a French pilot in Russia at the start of WW I who flew ops on the Russian front in the early war period.

I'll hopefully find their names ect and get back with you.

[healdav]

Thanks for all that. The source I have is a bit vague but I had the impression that there were many Russian officer in France who wanted to return to Russia. That the Germans seem to have allowed them to do so by travelling through Germany is rather surprising.

There is a whole story about a General Putkin who was arrested before the start of the war, held, released just in time to be rearrested as the war had now started! I'm surprised something similar didn't happen to these Russian officers.

[Mikhail]

20 hours ago, James A Pratt III said:

There was a future Russian WW I ace in France at the start of the war who did serve for awhile with the French Army at the front. He then recieved pilot training before he went back to Russia.

There was also a French pilot in Russia at the start of WW I who flew ops on the Russian front in the early war period.

I'll hopefully find their names ect and get back with you.

for example, Alphonse Flavien Poiré , French pilot who served in the Russian army.

 

[knittinganddeath]

54 minutes ago, healdav said:

Thanks for all that. The source I have is a bit vague but I had the impression that there were many Russian officer in France who wanted to return to Russia. That the Germans seem to have allowed them to do so by travelling through Germany is rather surprising.

On Margaret Macmillan's podcast 1914 Day By Day (about the leadup to the war from the assassination to the declaration) she mentions that the Austro-Hungarians detained a Serbian general who had been traveling by train through their country on holiday, but then released him because basically as gentlemen they felt it would be unsporting to disadvantage their opponents in this way before the war began. Maybe similar attitudes were at play with the Russian officers traveling through Germany?

[James A Pratt III]

Poire was the name of the French pilot. He flew over 100 combat missions in 2 years. He is mentioned in the books : With the Russian Army 1914-1917 by Arnold Knox which is online

and Without Flyers no Tannenberg

The future Russian ace is Paul V Argeyev who was in France at the start of the war and served with the French 331 Infantry Rgt and was later given command of the 5th Co/ 131 Infantry Rgt before being WIA rendered him unfit for front line service so he became a pilot.

[healdav]

17 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

On Margaret Macmillan's podcast 1914 Day By Day (about the leadup to the war from the assassination to the declaration) she mentions that the Austro-Hungarians detained a Serbian general who had been traveling by train through their country on holiday, but then released him because basically as gentlemen they felt it would be unsporting to disadvantage their opponents in this way before the war began. Maybe similar attitudes were at play with the Russian officers traveling through Germany?

This was General Putkin. There were still some bizarre things (to our eyes) going on in 1914. Just down the road from me (our pharmacy stands on the spot), a French teenager was walking towards the city on 2 August 1914 with his father, when he was stopped by a German sentry. They both thought it dreadful that the sentry wouldn't let them continue onwards even though the father pointed out that the boy had 'military obligations' to the French army and would be listed by them as a deserter if he didn't show up.