Request to identify Welsh soldier’s Regiment

[Mikeyb25]

Help requested-I recently found this postcard photograph in family documents. I suspect he is my Great- uncle but having difficulty identifying his surname and regiment. I believe he was born in Cardiff in 1905, and moved around the South Wales valleys. Obviously too young to serve in WW1.

The only other info I have discovered is that his uncle served during WW1 in the Royal Field Artillery, and lived nearby. I wonder if he was influenced by his war service in his choice of regiment?

Unfortunately the tunic badges and lapel badges aren’t easily identifiable. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

Royal Artillery.  The buttons together with collar badge confirm it.  Although the regular officers of the Royal Regiment wore a grenade with UBIQUE scroll as collar insignia, during WW1 other ranks were still wearing the universal grenade assigned to them in 1881 (and subsequently to many others**).  It was rare for them to wear collar badges on service dress, but very common on khaki drill (a stout cotton twill for hot weather) as is the case in this instance.  They continued to wear the plain collar grenade until the early 1920s.  Unlike the infantry the artillery (all branches) had their own discrete button.

**from 1905 for fusiliers and Grenadier Guards as part of shoulder titles, and as collar insignia for those without any special pattern of their own. 

Edited 10 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Welcome to GWF

Have you a name? - I'm guessing you do.  Can you share please?  And an accurate full DoB may also help.

Post-war service records are still available from the MoD/TNA https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson 

M

Edited 10 October , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Mikeyb25]

Thank you so much for your prompt replies and helpfulness. Unfortunately at the moment I can’t be definite about his adult surname- research suggests he changed it in his teens, possibly to his father’s. I suspect his adult surname was Jones, as when I applied to the GRO their website indicated his middle Christian name was (unusually) shown as Jones. Perhaps a nod to his father’s surname?
His sister didn’t have her father’s name on her birth certificate. I suspect the same situation here.

His first names were Thomas James and his mothers name was BEEKE. There is a possibility he enlisted in this name.

born in Cardiff, he lived in Ystrad Mynach, Glamorgan during WW1. 
 

thanks again.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Mikeyb25 said:

Unfortunately at the moment I can’t be definite about his adult surname- research suggests he changed it in his teens, possibly to his father’s. I suspect his adult surname was Jones, as when I applied to the GRO their website indicated his middle Christian name was (unusually) shown as Jones. Perhaps a nod to his father’s surname?
His sister didn’t have her father’s name on her birth certificate. I suspect the same situation here.

His first names were Thomas James and his mothers name was BEEKE. There is a possibility he enlisted in this name.

born in Cardiff, he lived in Ystrad Mynach, Glamorgan during WW1. 

Think you are suggesting

BEEKE, THOMAS  JAMES JONES  -   GRO Reference: 1905  J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD  Volume 11A  Page 522

If you have his accurate DoB that would help a MOD/TNA search under both BEEKE and JONES surnames [a single application with both surnames, as alternatives so they can sort it out, is likely to be the surest method - should you choose to go down that route!] .

M

Edited 10 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
delete erroneous part

[Jerry B]

Royal artillery as already stated

[DavidOwen]

Might the photo be of the relative's father who may have served in ww1?

 

[Mikeyb25]

Hi David & M

I’ve applied for his birth certificate and await it. The details I submitted to GRO are those that M has identified above.

His mother was shown as a widow aged 29 in the 1911 census.

He lived in a mining community with many colliers on both sides of my family. May be that she was widowed as a result of a mining accident…. She re- married in 1916. To be investigated when further details are known.
 

It’s difficult to pursue further until I obtain his date of birth and, hopefully, his fathers surname.

The circumstances, are really quite poignant. I found a letter dated 1982 from my grandmother addressed to the DHSS attempting to trace her long lost brother, Tommy. No other family member knew of her search. It seems to have ended in vain…

 

This is the reverse of Tommy’s portrait postcard.

[Matlock1418]

26 minutes ago, Mikeyb25 said:

I’ve applied for his birth certificate and await it. The details I submitted to GRO are those that M has identified above.

 No promises made/intended!

26 minutes ago, Mikeyb25 said:

His mother was shown as a widow aged 29 in the 1911 census.

What was mother's forename(s) and surname shown 1911??

26 minutes ago, Mikeyb25 said:

She re- married in 1916.

To whom?

According to FreeBMD three BEEKE women married that year in Pontypridd, two of whom married a JONES to boot!

Surname	First name(s)	Spouse	District	Vol	Page
Marriages Sep 1916   (>99%)
Beeke	Annie E	Durrant	Pontypridd	11a	1092
Marriages Dec 1916   (>99%)
Beeke	Edith L	Jones	Pontypridd	11a	1153
Beeke	Margaret L	Jones	Pontypridd	11a	945

???

I think we may need a helping hand Mikey. 

M

Edit: The above women respectivley married

George DURRANT

William H JONES

David C JONES

Edited 10 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
Edit

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

BEEKE, THOMAS  JAMES JONES   doesn't appear in the index of Post 1920 service records formerly held by the MOD on Ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61448/?count=50

The index is known to be incomplete

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

BEEKE, THOMAS  JAMES JONES   doesn't appear in the index of Post 1920 service records formerly held by the MOD on Ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61448/?count=50

The index is known to be incomplete

I thought that list was for men born before 1900 - his birth was 1905

M

[Mikeyb25]

Thanks so far M,

Tommy’s mother’s name was Annie Elizabeth BEEKE until she married George Stephen DURRANT in 1916.

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Mikeyb25 said:

Tommy’s mother’s name was Annie Elizabeth BEEKE until she married George Stephen DURRANT in 1916.

Ah good, the shotgun approach worked for 1916 marriages = 3rd Qtr.

[Not implying for cause of wedding!]

M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I thought that list was for men born before 1900 - his birth was 1905

M

The original MOD spreadsheets published a few years ago were indeed of soldiers born before 1901.
But with the transfer of the records to the National Archive, the records available will be of soldiers born up to 1907 I think.
Whether the Ancestry database already includes those born 1901-1906, I don't know.

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The original MOD spreadsheets published a few years ago were indeed of soldiers born before 1901.
But with the transfer of the records to the National Archive, the records available will be of soldiers born up to 1907 I think.
Whether the Ancestry database already includes those born 1901-1906, I don't know.

Ah, the ground again moves under our feet! 

M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

35 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Ah, the ground again moves under our feet! 

Yes indeed.
The records that will be accessible and currently in the process of being transferred include the series WO419 (men who were discharged between 1921 and 1939 and with a date of birth 115 ago).
(When I last read this article in 2022, 115 years ago was 1907. I guess that date now is 1908), and by the time the transfer of the whole series is complete by the end of March 2024 as I understand it, that would take the date of birth to March 1909.)

Later, the article states that the series is being digitized by Ancestry, and that when they publish the images, the records to be published will be for men born more than 100 years ago. So that implies army records of other ranks born before March 1924.
Anyway, the whole article is here:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/our-role/plans-policies-performance-and-projects/our-projects/ministry-of-defence-service-records/

 

[PRC]

13 hours ago, Mikeyb25 said:

This is the reverse of Tommy’s portrait postcard.

@Mikeyb25 - a belated welcome to the forum

I would say your Tommy is writing to his grandad and mother at 43 Commercial Street, Ystrad Mynach, Glamorganshire - so either estranged from his step-father or that gentleman is no longer in the picture.

The occupants of that address on the 1911 Census of England & Wales probably don't help other than to tell you it was then a Hairdressers Shop. It was occupied by a married couple Alfred George Gill, (aged 34, born Rhondda, Glamorganshire, a Hairdresser working at home) and Nellie Gill, (aged 33, born Llanelly, Carmarthenshire). The couple have been married 10 years and the union has produced no children, so Alfred is probably not anyones grandfather.

However a check of the occupants of that address on the 1921 Census of England & Wales, plus the subsequent electoral registers may chuck some new names in the pot - like that of James Arthur Beeke, the grandfather of Thomas John, (rather than Thomas James), shown on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. At least that way you'd have a better idea that you are looking at the right man.

FindMyPast has the Royal Artillery Attestation books that should cover the likely period when he should have served - but although as a non-subscriber I can only see the indexing, there does not appear to be any match for a Thomas James \ Thomas John, any surname, born anywhere in Britain c1905 +/- 2 years

Cheers,
Peter

[Mikeyb25]

Hi Peter- thank you for your efforts- much appreciated. I’m looking forward to discovering his father’s details on his birth certificate. Let’s hope that they’re recorded. 

[Matlock1418]

43 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The records that will be accessible and currently in the process of being transferred include the series WO419 (men who were discharged between 1921 and 1939 and with a date of birth 115 ago).
(When I last read this article in 2022, 115 years ago was 1907. I guess that date now is 1908), and by the time the transfer of the whole series is complete by the end of March 2024 as I understand it, that would take the date of birth to March 1909.)

Later, the article states that the series is being digitized by Ancestry, and that when they publish the images, the records to be published will be for men born more than 100 years ago. So that implies army records of other ranks born before March 1924.
Anyway, the whole article is here:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/our-role/plans-policies-performance-and-projects/our-projects/ministry-of-defence-service-records/

 Dai.  Note to self - Keep up M, Keep up! [Actually the grey cell had forgotten having previously read that! ]

M

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Mikeyb25 said:

I’m looking forward to discovering his father’s details on his birth certificate. Let’s hope that they’re recorded. 

The absence of a mothers' maiden name on the GRO records is probably a 99.99% guarantee that the father isn't listed. Back then only a married mother could record the fathers name without him being present - for an unmarried mother the biological father had to be present and sign the register at the same time, thus publicly acknowledging parenthood. Which then begs the question of why such couples hadn't married - so a possibility in the case of Thomas, but a very remote one.

For the other two grandchildren shown in the household of James Arthur Beeke at Loftus Street on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, the same scenario applies to Violet Harriet Beeke, (Q4 1901, Pontypridd District), and probably Mary Elizabeth Beeke, (Q4, 1908 Pontypridd District) - she is on the quarterly index of births in England & Wales but I'm not getting a specific match for her on the GRO website so can't confirm whether she was transcribed from their records either with or without a mothers' maiden name.

And chasing parents James Arthur Beeke and Louisa Harriet Beeke back through the previous censuses, in 1901 they have an unmarried daughter, the 19 year old Annie E. Beeke, born Cardiff, and in 1891 they have a 9 year old daughter, Annie E. Beeke, born Cardiff.

So unless any details crop up on something like a marriage certificate for one of the three children, address where the children were born leading to a census return \ electoral register entry or a newspaper report on a claim for maintenance \ compensation from the mining company following the death of her common law husband, then I suspect it may be a question of the dna route.

Cheers,
Peter

[Mikeyb25]

Wow, thank you Peter for your extensive research. I’m very impressed and grateful for your genealogical capabilities. 
As a sideline, family folklore has it that the same side of the family are related to Edward Jenner- the physician who invented the world’s first vaccine, and has saved millions of lives since. I have started the research, and true enough, Annie E Beeke’s mother was a Louisa Harriet Beeke nee Jenner! The jigsaw puzzle nearly fits. Both Dr Jenner and my family of Jenner’s are from nearby villages in Gloucester, albeit mine were from working stock- butchers, agricultural workers and cloth workers. The search for a link continues.

 

[Tawhiri]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Mary Elizabeth Beeke, (Q4, 1908 Pontypridd District) - she is on the quarterly index of births in England & Wales but I'm not getting a specific match for her on the GRO website so can't confirm whether she was transcribed from their records either with or without a mothers' maiden name.

The England and Wales Birth Registration Index on FamilySearch gives the volume and page number, but even with that I can't find her birth registration in the GRO Online Indexes.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FVG-X8D

Mary appears to have married a Joseph Jenn in the last quarter of 1929, the marriage being registered in Merthyr Tydfil.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV89-P3VQ

Interestingly there is a fourth child in the household in the 1911 England and Wales census, Minnie Eleanor Maddoc, who is described as an orphaned grandchild. She seems to have died unmarried in 1938, her death being registered in Pembrokeshire.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Interestingly there is a fourth child in the household in the 1911 England and Wales census, Minnie Eleanor Maddoc, who is described as an orphaned grandchild. She seems to have died unmarried in 1938, her death being registered in Pembrokeshire.

Looking at the document there are lots of possible interpretations of the end of Minnie’s surname based on the handwriting on the form – Madder / Madda/ Maddei as well as Maddoc – but I believe the  matching birth registration is that of a Minnie Eleanor MADDOCK, mothers’ maiden name Beeke, in the Newport, Monmouthshire District in the January to March, (Q1), of 1904.

There is a marriage recorded in the same District of a John MADDOCK to a Minnie Beeke in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1894.

On the 1891 Census  of England & Wales one of the other children of James A. Beeke and Louisa H. Beeke was the 18 year old Minnie E. Beeke, born Cheam, Surrey.

On the 1901 Census  of England & Wales there is a married couple John Maddock, (29, Coal Hewer, born Maceycymmer, Monmouthshire) and Minnie E. Maddock, (28, born Cheam, Surrey), recorded living at 64 Ynyseynon Road, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorganshire. The couple have 4 children living with them – Emily L., (7), Thomas, (4), Edith C., (3) and James, (4 months). That address fell within the Pontypridd Registration District.

The death of a 1 year old James Maddock was recorded in the Pontypridd District in Q4 1901.

The death of a Minnie Eleanor Maddock, aged 31, was recorded in the Newport, Monmouthshire District in Q1 1904.

But not spotting an obvious death of John Maddock prior to the 1911 Census.

On the 1911 Census there is a possible match for the 14 year old Thomas Maddock, living with his uncle and aunt Thomas Nathan Osborne and Leah Osborne at 2, North Street, Maceycymmer. Young Thomas worked as a Coal Miner Hewer. I wonder if that Thomas went on to serve in the Great War?

As always with genealogy it could all just be a load of co-incidences

Cheers,
Peter

[Mikeyb25]

Wow, thank you so much for the above. I hadn’t discovered that. Geographically, it all makes sense- I know there were family living in Maesycwmmer. I will try and piece the facts together tomorrow. Once again, thank you. Mike 

[AaronJayThomas]

On 11/10/2023 at 12:29, PRC said:

The absence of a mothers' maiden name on the GRO records is probably a 99.99% guarantee that the father isn't listed. Back then only a married mother could record the fathers name without him being present - for an unmarried mother the biological father had to be present and sign the register at the same time, thus publicly acknowledging parenthood. Which then begs the question of why such couples hadn't married - so a possibility in the case of Thomas, but a very remote one.

For the other two grandchildren shown in the household of James Arthur Beeke at Loftus Street on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, the same scenario applies to Violet Harriet Beeke, (Q4 1901, Pontypridd District), and probably Mary Elizabeth Beeke, (Q4, 1908 Pontypridd District) - she is on the quarterly index of births in England & Wales but I'm not getting a specific match for her on the GRO website so can't confirm whether she was transcribed from their records either with or without a mothers' maiden name.

And chasing parents James Arthur Beeke and Louisa Harriet Beeke back through the previous censuses, in 1901 they have an unmarried daughter, the 19 year old Annie E. Beeke, born Cardiff, and in 1891 they have a 9 year old daughter, Annie E. Beeke, born Cardiff.

So unless any details crop up on something like a marriage certificate for one of the three children, address where the children were born leading to a census return \ electoral register entry or a newspaper report on a claim for maintenance \ compensation from the mining company following the death of her common law husband, then I suspect it may be a question of the dna route.

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter, 

James and Louisa were my 2x great grandparents. I am distant relative of the Beekes and have been researching my family tree for a number of years, and have an extensive knowledge and collection of certificates, if you would like any more information about them please let me know

Kind Regards

Aaron