CA479 Posted 8 October , 2023 Share Posted 8 October , 2023 Hi, Please forgive me if I am asking a question which has been asked before, I am a newbie to the forum & need experienced members to help me. My Great Grandfather, David Ross joined the Black Watch, Royal Highlanders 4th Battalion Territorial Force in Kinghorn, Fife on the 3rd September 1914. He saw overseas action in December 1915 & again from September 1916 to April 1917. He won the 1915 Star, British War Medal & the Victory Medal. I know that he made it home, as he was invalided out of the colours due to illness. My question is which cap badge would he have worn? I can find two examples, with variations of colour & materials used on both designs - images below, but no explanation of the designs. Also, why would a man who signed up in Kinghorn, Fife be put into the 4th Battalion, which I believe was a Perthshire Battalion? Many, many thanks in advance for any help or information. CNR479 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 8 October , 2023 Share Posted 8 October , 2023 In 1914-15 he would not have worn any of those. the top one is pre 1908 (except for a school OTC), the brass one is Canadian and the bottom one is the 1902 Regular badge that the TF did not wear until 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 8 October , 2023 Share Posted 8 October , 2023 The TF battalions wore this badge with the sphinx absent from 1908 until the were issued the regular badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 October , 2023 Share Posted 8 October , 2023 Here is a better image of the badge described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA479 Posted 9 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2023 Thank you both so very much, really appreciated. CNR479 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 9 October , 2023 Share Posted 9 October , 2023 (edited) In response to your second question if he enlisted at the start of the war then the previous regional links were often overlooked. He may have enlisted in the BW and sent to which ever battalion had capacity to take him. There was a rush of volunteers and they ended up in some odd places. My wife's relatives were all Taunton based but when they enlisted in 1915 one ended up in the Gloster TF and another joined the Royal Irish Regiment. The geographic links were even more eroded from 1916 onwards. My advice if you are looking for a badge to go with the medals would be to get a Regular pattern one with the sphinx and scrolls. A genuine one will only set you back 10-15 GBP where as a aTF one is literally 10 times that: if you can find one. Edited 9 October , 2023 by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA479 Posted 9 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2023 Hi, Thank you Max7474 for your kind help. I think, having looked, that a Regular pattern will be very acceptable! Regards, CNR479 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 October , 2023 Share Posted 9 October , 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, CA479 said: Hi, Thank you Max7474 for your kind help. I think, having looked, that a Regular pattern will be very acceptable! Regards, CNR479 A red hackle is actually more important in terms of what he would have worn. It was usually the main insignia when in the field. Edited 10 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA479 Posted 10 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2023 Thank you for the extra information. CNR479 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA479 Posted 10 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2023 Hi, any recommendations where to buy an original? Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 October , 2023 Share Posted 10 October , 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, CA479 said: Hi, any recommendations where to buy an original? Many thanks No they’re made from cut feathers and to be authentic should be only around 3 inches long and unlikely to have survived since 1918. That specification continued until quite recently. See:https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/292383-the-red-hackle-in-the-bonnets/ I’m not sure who the home contractor was but imports from Pakistan have proliferated and a much longer hackle was adopted a few years ago. Compare upper and lower photos below. There are reliable suppliers here: 1. https://www.regimentalstore.co.uk/regimental-hackles-3854-p.asp?_=&variantid=6293&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxoXr94PrgQMVReztCh2cPgCpEAQYAiABEgK4o_D_BwE 2.https://houseoflabhran.com/scottish-irish-feather-bonnet-hackles-plumes/red-glengarry-tos-feather-hackle 3.https://www.adventure1.co.uk/contents/en-us/p1325_3rd_scots_regiment_hackles.html NB. Spot the evidence of our multi-cultural nation joining its army. Edited 10 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 10 October , 2023 Share Posted 10 October , 2023 “NB. Spot the evidence of our multi-cultural nation joining its army.” You mean the German guy in the middle? Actually the latest figures are (though it often doesn’t look like it):- ▲10.1% Ethnic minorities (excluding white minorities) representation in the UK Regular Forces as at 1 April 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 October , 2023 Share Posted 10 October , 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, PhilB said: “NB. Spot the evidence of our multi-cultural nation joining its army.” You mean the German guy in the middle? Actually the latest figures are (though it often doesn’t look like it):- ▲10.1% Ethnic minorities (excluding white minorities) representation in the UK Regular Forces as at 1 April 2023 I’m not at all surprised by those statistics. It’s the reason why I was in the late 1990s sent recruiting to Grenada, St Lucia and St Vincent, because the then government sought greater ‘diversity’ that could not be achieved with domestic recruiting efforts. Edited 11 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA479 Posted 11 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2023 Hi, Thank you for the information - but I was referring to a badge! Should have made myself clearer. A Senior Moment..... Where is the best place to buy a good original badge at a reasonable cost? I can find lots on Ebay, but not sure if the listing details are accurate. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 October , 2023 Share Posted 11 October , 2023 8 minutes ago, CA479 said: Hi, Thank you for the information - but I was referring to a badge! Should have made myself clearer. A Senior Moment..... Where is the best place to buy a good original badge at a reasonable cost? I can find lots on Ebay, but not sure if the listing details are accurate. Thanks again There’s a Black Watch badge going at the following link for £10: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95072 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landser Posted 11 October , 2023 Share Posted 11 October , 2023 Bonjour. Est que celui ci est bien WWI ?? Merci. Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 October , 2023 Share Posted 11 October , 2023 2 minutes ago, landser said: Bonjour. Est que celui ci est bien WWI ?? Merci. Reveal hidden contents Oui. C’est bon. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landser Posted 11 October , 2023 Share Posted 11 October , 2023 ,merci FROGSMILES' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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