Lukulele Posted 29 September , 2023 Share Posted 29 September , 2023 New guy here, I apologize if this has already been discussed but I could not find anything that answers my question specifically. I have been doing some research on the Scots Guards. From what I understand the 2nd battalion wore a red white and black diced cap band but eventually moved on to only having 2 patches of the same diced pattern worn on either side of the SD cap. The literature I’ve read regarding the 2nd battalion cap patches doesn’t mention officers wearing the patches like the 1st battalion. I assume it’s the same as the 1st battalion but wanted to see if anyone knew whether the patches for the 2nd battalion were only worn by officers like the 1st battalion, or if other ranks wore the patch as well. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 (edited) On 30/09/2023 at 00:02, Lukulele said: New guy here, I apologize if this has already been discussed but I could not find anything that answers my question specifically. I have been doing some research on the Scots Guards. From what I understand the 2nd battalion wore a red white and black diced cap band but eventually moved on to only having 2 patches of the same diced pattern worn on either side of the SD cap. The literature I’ve read regarding the 2nd battalion cap patches doesn’t mention officers wearing the patches like the 1st battalion. I assume it’s the same as the 1st battalion but wanted to see if anyone knew whether the patches for the 2nd battalion were only worn by officers like the 1st battalion, or if other ranks wore the patch as well. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I have to date seen no evidence of Scots Guards other ranks wearing the diced patterns on service dress caps. As for Scots Guards officers there were patches in Royal Stewart tartan worn on the side of SD caps in WW2, but I’ve not seen that in WW1 images. Might you be conflating the practice from WW2? I don’t know if @Glenn J might be able to help. Edited 1 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 I have not looked at this particular practice in any detail so have just had a quick run through of the regimental history of the Scots Guards in WW1. The only mention I have so far found regarding the wear of dicing or tartan in there was on page 173 as follows: (December? 1916) ”The 2nd Battalion had obtained permission from the Brigadier to wear patches of red, blue and white dicing, like that worn in peace time on the forage caps of the Scots Guards, and it is noted in the Battalion diary of 8th December, that officers and warrant officers started wearing it on their steel helmets”. No mention of rank is stated for the wear on the SD cap. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 Further to my previous post, David Bilton in his “Badges of the Regular infantry 1914-1918”, includes a photograph of Sergeant McAulay VC, DCM wearing a patch on the left side of his SD cap. He states, in the case of the 1st `battalion that the patches were distributed by the QM on 27 September 1917; presumably to all ranks. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 25 minutes ago, Glenn J said: I have not looked at this particular practice in any detail so have just had a quick run through of the regimental history of the Scots Guards in WW1. The only mention I have so far found regarding the wear of dicing or tartan in there was on page 173 as follows: (December? 1916) ”The 2nd Battalion had obtained permission from the Brigadier to wear patches of red, blue and white dicing, like that worn in peace time on the forage caps of the Scots Guards, and it is noted in the Battalion diary of 8th December, that officers and warrant officers started wearing it on their steel helmets”. No mention of rank is stated for the wear on the SD cap. Regards Glenn Thanks for responding Glenn. This surviving steel helmet gives a good impression of how the dicing appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukulele Posted 30 September , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2023 Thank you both for your replies. This information very helpful for my studies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Glenn J said: Further to my previous post, David Bilton in his “Badges of the Regular infantry 1914-1918”, includes a photograph of Sergeant McAulay VC, DCM wearing a patch on the left side of his SD cap. He states, in the case of the 1st `battalion that the patches were distributed by the QM on 27 September 1917; presumably to all ranks. Regards Glenn Here are two photos of Sergeant McAulay VC DCM and it’s just about possible to see the rectangle of dicing behind his left side chinstrap button. Interestingly that is the same position that officers of the Scots Guards wore a small rectangle of Royal Stewart tartan, although I’m not sure when that began. In the enclosed artwork image by Mike Chappell the rectangular patch is shown as tartan rather than dicing / chequering. Looking at the larger photo of Sgt McAulay I can see that dicing is the correct description. A patch of dicing had been used previously on khaki foreign service helmets and slouch hats during the 2nd Anglo/Boer War so it was a well established regimental practice and not something new. Edited 30 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 (edited) In the past I have heard that 1st Battalion Scots Guards favoured a small patch of dicing, and that the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards preferred a patch of Royal Stewart tartan. I am unsure if that is correct, but it seems entirely possible. Edited 30 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 Thank you FS, I have seen these illustrations by Mike Chappell including one of an RSM of 1 SG but did not have access to the accompanying descriptive text. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 Hi The enclosed pic is part of a series of postcards issued by the IWM of A E Haswell Millers uniform plates and shoes the Scots Guards. Hope this is of help to you. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, KENDO said: Hi The enclosed pic is part of a series of postcards issued by the IWM of A E Haswell Millers uniform plates and shoes the Scots Guards. Hope this is of help to you. Best regards, Ken Thanks Ken, that is indeed helpful. It shows the 1st Battalion with the dicing on their steel helmets and so confirms the earlier posts. Haswell Miller is always excellent as he usually drew from life, taking copious notes of uniform and insignia details and then painted them up subsequently. He is thus very reliable. Thank you for posting. Edited 30 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 Hi Poonaguard, It's 2 Bn not 1 Bn. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukulele Posted 30 September , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Thanks Ken, that is indeed helpful. It shows the 1st Battalion with the dicing on their steel helmets and so confirms the earlier posts. Haswell Miller is always excellent as he usually drew from life, taking copious notes of uniform and insignia details and then painted them up subsequently. He is thus very reliable. Thank you for posting. Hi FROGSMILE, I appreciate your replies on this subject, it has been extremely helpful as I am putting a uniform together. I believe that painting with the man in the steel helmet is a soldier of the 2nd battalion indicated by the cloth insignia with the thistle under the letters Scots Guards and blue roman numeral 2. As I understand it, the 1st battalion did not have the thistle on the cloth shoulder title. As of right now I can assume other ranks would have painted the diced pattern on their helmet as well as having a patch of the diced pattern on either side later in the war similar to 1st battalion. As Glen mentions in an earlier post regarding the distribution of tartan patches in 1917 to “presumably all ranks.” Edited 1 October , 2023 by Lukulele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 Sorry meant Frogsmile not Poona guard *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 October , 2023 Share Posted 1 October , 2023 7 hours ago, KENDO said: Hi Poonaguard, It's 2 Bn not 1 Bn. Best regards, Ken Thanks Ken, I see that now. It was late… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 October , 2023 Share Posted 1 October , 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Lukulele said: Hi FROGSMILE, I appreciate your replies on this subject, it has been extremely helpful as I am putting a uniform together. I believe that painting with the man in the steel helmet is a soldier of the 2nd battalion indicated by the cloth insignia with the thistle under the letters Scots Guards and blue roman numeral 2. As I understand it, the 1st battalion did not have the thistle on the cloth shoulder title. As of right now I can assume other ranks would have painted the diced pattern on their helmet as well as having a patch of the diced pattern on either side later in the war similar to 1st battalion. As Glen mentions in an earlier post regarding the distribution of tartan patches in 1917 to “presumably all ranks.” Yes agreed. I’m pleased to have contributed a little along with Glenn and Kendo. At some point decals began to be used for steel helmets, but I can’t recall when that began. Edited 1 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladonia Posted 6 October , 2023 Share Posted 6 October , 2023 Hello there A bit late to the party but heres a better photo of Sergeant herry Wood VC, 2nd Batt Scots Guards wearing the diced cap patch and the Battalion insignia. Also alink to an excellant article on the Battalion patches worn by the Guards. Hope this of interest William Foot Guards WWI Badges.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukulele Posted 6 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2023 19 minutes ago, caladonia said: Hello there A bit late to the party but heres a better photo of Sergeant herry Wood VC, 2nd Batt Scots Guards wearing the diced cap patch and the Battalion insignia. Also alink to an excellant article on the Battalion patches worn by the Guards. Hope this of interest William Foot Guards WWI Badges.pdf Hi! I am always open to more information on this subject. The article you sent is an excellent read. I’ve used it to gather insignia for my impression. Feel free to send any other photos you have regarding the patch on the SD cap, that also goes for anyone else that reads this forum. I love having multiple examples for research purposes. Thank you, Luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 October , 2023 Share Posted 6 October , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, caladonia said: Hello there A bit late to the party but heres a better photo of Sergeant herry Wood VC, 2nd Batt Scots Guards wearing the diced cap patch and the Battalion insignia. Also alink to an excellant article on the Battalion patches worn by the Guards. Hope this of interest William Foot Guards WWI Badges.pdf Thank you Caladonia, the extra image and information is very much appreciated by me also. Thank you for posting. NB. It’s clear that the patch of dicing is the same depth as the complete band that would on a coloured forage cap run the full circumference of the cap, so it really is almost as if a small section had been cut out and stitched on, although I’m not suggesting that is the case, just that the scale is right. Edited 6 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted 6 October , 2023 Share Posted 6 October , 2023 Hello William, and a thank you from me also. The close up shot is extremely useful as indeed is the link to the article. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladonia Posted 6 October , 2023 Share Posted 6 October , 2023 Hello there Glad you found my post of interest, a small correction, the gallant sergeants name was Harry Wood VC, not as I posted, sorry. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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