Awarding of the Croix de Guerre

[Young_dirk]

Good afternoon all,

I am interested in understanding more about how the Croix de Guerre was awarded. Would it be announced in a newspaper similar to the Military Cross and the London Gazette? I understand that the CdG is a French/Belgian award, but my great-grandfather, Robert Andrews (service number 6412 or later referred as Lieutenant), wears one with a bronze palm in several pictures. If I'm not mistaken, this denotes that it could be mentioned in an army dispatch or could be a unit award. However, the Canadian Expeditionary Forces would not be the awarding authority of a CdG, right?

I noticed in his service record that he did take leave for Paris at one point. I'm not sure if he would have been awarded it there or not, though.

Not to get too far off topic, I will add that he did hype up his service (I think he looked up to and was jealous of then Major George Pearkes). There are several newspaper articles about Robert in The Berkshire Eagle (Pittsfield, MA) where he claimed he was a Captain. In his wedding announcement, same newspaper (14 Sep 1920), it is claimed that he was promoted to Major in the CEF shortly after the battle of Passchendaele and "Mr. Andrews was decorated for bringing down five battleplanes. He received a military cross from King George, a croix de guerre from the French government, and a Marne medal for service through the war." I suppose that he, technically, did receive the medal from King George, but likely was not presented by the King directly. Also, I haven't found any record of the Marne medal nor confirmation of the downing of five battleplanes. So, it wouldn't surprise me that he did inflate his military service.

To the point, though, my main focus with this is to try to figure out if he did get a Croix de Guerre.

 

 

Edited 29 September , 2023 by Young_dirk
Meant to add the service record entry for leave to Paris

[Andrew Upton]

41 minutes ago, Young_dirk said:

...I am interested in understanding more about how the Croix de Guerre was awarded. Would it be announced in a newspaper similar to the Military Cross and the London Gazette? I understand that the CdG is a French/Belgian award, but my great-grandfather, Robert Andrews (service number 6412 or later referred as Lieutenant), wears one with a bronze palm in several pictures....

To the point, though, my main focus with this is to try to figure out if he did get a Croix de Guerre.

Yes it would be announced in the London Gazette. An example (in this case for the Belgian Croix de Guerre) of part of a list that includes a soldier I was researching a couple of years ago:

[Young_dirk]

4 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Yes it would be announced in the London Gazette. An example (in this case for the Belgian Croix de Guerre) of part of a list that includes a soldier I was researching a couple of years ago:

Thanks for the quick response! Was the procedure the same for unit awards - announced individually in the Gazette or collectively announced to a unit's name? Or would something like that be documented in a war diary?

[TullochArd]

He's no shirker for sure.  Regarding his MC there are two LG entries

LG Ed. 30507 p.1602 of 4 Feb 18 is the initial award of MC to 'Canadian Force' 'Lt. Robert Andrews, Mt. Rif. Bn' (as referenced on the Service Record you attach.) then LG Ed. 30780 p.7930 of 2 Jul 1918 adds the citation "Lt. Robert Andrews, Mtd. Rif. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty in handling his platoon throughout two days' operations. He was instrumental in capturing a farm, with twenty-one prisoners and two machine guns, driving off counterattacks and holding on to the captured positions" 

Through a fog of other Andrews I couldn't pin down a Croix de Guerre in the LG but it may well be there.  The War Diary might give a clue but in Robert's case he was all over the place so it's which one for whole chunks of time.  The Marne Medal beats me that is a 1914 French medal.  Stretching it .......I do note that the British Victory Medal he would be wearing in the US after the War has the identical ribbon to the US Victory medal but the latter occasionally sport 'Marne' bars eg Marne-Aisne and Marne-Champagne .....which could explain the US newspaper reporting as a misunderstanding?

Regarding rank: LG Ed. 31264 p.4215 of 1 Apr 19 (Under RAF) has the undermentioned relinquish their oommns. on ceasing to be empld.“4th Mar. 1919” “ 2nd Lt. (hon. Lt.) R. Andrews, M.C. (Lt., Quebec R.).”  That said, he may have held Local rank, which is not normally recorded, at some point in his career.

The following tells you nothing new but it is nice to see Robert mentioned on original docs: 

20221126_1CEF_Honours_Awards_updated.pdf (regimentalrogue.com)

...... although mentioned in the list for MC he is not named as one of the 6 Belgian and 3 French Croix de Guerres recorded here.

Edited 1 October , 2023 by TullochArd
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/researching_the_rcr/20221126_1CEF_Honours_Awards_updated.pdf

[kenf48]

On 29/09/2023 at 21:19, Young_dirk said:

I noticed in his service record that he did take leave for Paris at one point. I'm not sure if he would have been awarded it there or not, though.

Both officers and other ranks of the CEF looked forward to leave, as did all soldiers in F & F. Generally it was granted annually, it was obviously impractical to go on home leave so they went to Paris, or sometimes London and the UK, often of course to visit family if they had emigrated.  In the week or two away from the front line they would make the most of what was on offer in these cities.  Many British soldiers also took advantage of the opportunity to visit Paris.

As for the foreign awards the major difference was the recommendation was passed down the chain of command, whereas the recommendation for the MC was passed up the chain of command and there was no guarantee it would be received.  I don't know what the figure was for the CEF but in the British Army it often depended on the skill/inclination of the Commanding Officer to put forward awards.  Often men would get a foreign award for the same action as the British award.

On 29/09/2023 at 21:19, Young_dirk said:

However, the Canadian Expeditionary Forces would not be the awarding authority of a CdG, right?

Over 40,000 foreign awards were distributed, there are rare examples of French generals bestowing the award,'in the field'.  More commonly they were allocated at a higher level.  Not all were published in the LG.  There was some cynicism over foreign awards and their distribution as evidenced by a couple of examples cited in the late Charles Messenger's 'Call-to-Arms'.

Rowland Fielding CO 1/15th London Regiment writing to his wife nearly 1918 and describes the process quite succinctly.

"These are handed over to the War Office in batches, at more or less regular intervals, by all of the Allies. How many ever reach the front line? I had known perhaps half a dozen or so in my experience.  Of course the explanation is the Wr Office must have a pick. Then GHQ-France must be satisfied.  Then, there are the different Army Headquarters, the Headquarters of all the Corps  - not forgetting the back area troops, the Division and the Brigades.  It is not surprising after so remorseless a filtering, nothing survives so far forward as a fire trench, except by accident, and then only if it is very small"

In another example Lt. Col.George Hawes, AA&QMG 35th Division, temporarily under French Command, again in 1918 illustrates the haphazard nature of the award of foreign decorations;

"One day, after the operations had been going on for some time a bag of Medalle Militaires and Legion d'Honneur arrived at Divisional Headquarters from General Franchet d'Espery with a request to distribute them as we thought fit!  Jeffreys [Divisional Commander]  asked me what I wanted and I chose the Legion d'Honneur!  We went round the units with the Rostand pinned them on the tunics of officers and men selected by their respective commanders.  Our 'citations' or complimentary orders were issued later.  A very good and quick way of decorating in the field and very superior to our cumbersome system, when men often get their medals when they are dead."

(In spite of the apparent haphazard nature of the award Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel (temporary Lieutenant-Colonel)  George Ernest Hawes, D.S O., M.C., Royal Fusiliers award as Knight of the Legion d'Honneur appeared in the Supplement to the LG 31222 page 3280 7 March 1919.)

That said, it seems surprising that the award is not noted against his name in the list linked above. I can't find him in the LG either.

 

 

[Young_dirk]

16 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I do note that the British Victory Medal he would be wearing in the US after the War has the identical ribbon to the US Victory medal but the latter occasionally sport 'Marne' bars eg Marne-Aisne and Marne-Champagne .....which could explain the US newspaper reporting as a misunderstanding?

I suppose it's entirely possible that the newspaper did an interview and made some mistakes based off what he said or may have explained. I did find another article in that same newspaper that referred to his, and several other veterans, disputes against another man in their town for stolen valor. They even received a letter from Brigadier-General Crickshank who said he never heard of that name receiving a Victoria Cross, let alone that man serving in the regiment he claimed.

It seems odd to me that he would be so bold to lie about his own valor, but also call out a man in his town about the same thing while holding a position of authority within the American Legion. Perhaps it's possible that he knew just exactly how much he could get away with, but it's far less common, for those that commit acts of stolen valor, to be modest about it.

 

16 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Regarding rank: LG Ed. 31264 p.4215 of 1 Apr 19 (Under RAF) has the undermentioned relinquish their oommns. on ceasing to be empld.“4th Mar. 1919” “ 2nd Lt. (hon. Lt.) R. Andrews, M.C. (Lt., Quebec R.).”  That said, he may have held Local rank, which is not normally recorded, at some point in his career.

When you say local rank, is that something along the lines of the regiment giving a field promotion that bears no insignia nor service record entry? Basically, he could be told he's a captain over a specific group, but he'd still be a lieutenant in uniform?

 

Thanks for the help.

[Young_dirk]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Both officers and other ranks of the CEF looked forward to leave, as did all soldiers in F & F. Generally it was granted annually, it was obviously impractical to go on home leave so they went to Paris, or sometimes London and the UK, often of course to visit family if they had emigrated.

I have read a few letters and newspaper articles that talked about him going to London and visiting with relatives or having tea with locals from Pittsfield who had traveled to London. He even mentioned that he was to receive a gold watch from the mayor of Wolverhampton to congratulate him on his Military Cross award. It's probably more likely to have been leisurely (as much as it could be during war).

 

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

In another example Lt. Col.George Hawes, AA&QMG 35th Division, temporarily under French Command, again in 1918 illustrates the haphazard nature of the award of foreign decorations;

Thank you for sharing these excerpts. I was curious if something like this would have happened back then. Now I'm curious if he would have received his Croix de Guerre in a similar scenario after the battle of Passchendaele, but it might not have been recorded because he went on to the Royal Flying Corps before it could have been recorded. I digress... That's purely speculative and nearly impossible to prove without more writings from him or close associates.

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Young_dirk said:

it might not have been recorded because he went on to the Royal Flying Corps before it could have been recorded.

You can download his RAF Service record for free from the UK National Archives if you register.

It shows he served with 82 Squadron as a Corps Observer from 25th August 1918. It references his appointment as Temp/Lt and his MC under  the heading 'Rewards' but no mention of foreign awards

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8186019

I think it a bit harsh to deem it 'stolen valour' given the MC, perhaps as we say over here he was just 'gilding the lily' as far as his war service. I guess the next step is to pursue his time in the RAF.

[Young_dirk]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

It shows he served with 82 Squadron as a Corps Observer from 25th August 1918. It references his appointment as Temp/Lt and his MC under  the heading 'Rewards' but no mention of foreign awards ... I guess the next step is to pursue his time in the RAF.

Apart from the service record that you linked to, do you have any ideas for other methods to look into his RAF service? The RAF service record is rather short, given that his time with them was short (Apr 1918 - Mar 1919). In another post I created, a couple years ago, someone shared a photo of his squadron in front of a hangar alluding that it could have been from the RAF Museum, but I haven't had much luck searching there.

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

I think it a bit harsh to deem it 'stolen valour' given the MC, perhaps as we say over here he was just 'gilding the lily' as far as his war service.

I see what you mean. I do find it intriguing that it was never claimed he had greater than what he was awarded (i.e., Victoria Cross). I didn't mean for it to come off harsh (especially given that it seemed he enjoyed the fight) - probably just a cultural thing here in the states. During my time in the U.S. Navy I saw a few instances of people lying about their awards/ranks in service and the U.S. services treat stolen valor, for the most part, with an equal and complete lack of impunity.

[TullochArd]

5 hours ago, Young_dirk said:

"I suppose it's entirely possible that the newspaper did an interview and made some mistakes based off what he said or may have explained".........."When you say local rank, is that something along the lines of the regiment giving a field promotion that bears no insignia nor service record entry? Basically, he could be told he's a captain over a specific group, but he'd still be a lieutenant in uniform?"

I've not seen the newspaper article about the medals but have seen enough newspaper articles to know that reporters often cherry pick information to sell a story. They were payed by the print line usually.  Personally I'm convinced your relative is straight ....... the M.C. and Lt feature too much.  The "Marne Medal" conundrum, bearing in mind the US Victory Medal with bars becomes a campaign medal but the British Victory Medal is not (the British rejected the bar option after due consideration), can be plausibly explained by ignorance on the part of the reporter regarding the ribbon.  The CdeG is a medal sometimes awarded but not always recorded as kenf48 has explained.  Local rank is a short term option to (usually) meet a specific task by unpaid promotion (and therefore authority) for that particular task. He seems quite content with Lt elsewhere so we are perhaps reading to much here from potentially suspect sources. I know of several embarrassing newspaper stories originating from well intentioned relatives (wives are particularly susceptible) proudly gossiping.  That may be another source of error.

---------------------------

We are fortunate(?) to have the internet to dissect info these days - regarding the C.H. Beach V.C.  There is a 442843 Charles Hicks-Beach CEF (b.5 Jan 1876). The Hicks-Beach clan are regulars in the 'Peerage'. I know no more than that but have heard a few stories in my time in the Army that so-and so, was recommended for this and that but never got it. Could the same breed of reporter been lugging in here?

Edited 2 October , 2023 by TullochArd

[Young_dirk]

8 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I've not seen the newspaper article about the medals but have seen enough newspaper articles to know that reporters often cherry pick information to sell a story.

I could see how an interviewer might twist or distort some answers in order to make it seem like a big deal. Come to think of it... most of the articles I have of my great-grandfather during the war referred to him as a Captain and it appeared that his stories "from the front" saw an increased sale of papers in the small town of Pittsfield, MA. I wouldn't be surprised if they made him more prestigious in his wedding announcement in order to sell more papers. "Town War Hero Gets Married" sounds a lot better if he's decorated and high ranking.

 

8 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I know of several embarrassing newspaper stories originating from well intentioned relatives (wives are particularly susceptible) proudly gossiping.

His older sister and his mother were both very proud of him and eager to share his stories. To be fair, he did make sergeant rather quickly (compared to his step-brother who seemed to have remained at the rank of private for the duration of the war) and even rapidly made it to Lieutenant from there.

8 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Could the same breed of reporter been lugging in here?

Possibly. I don't want to get too off topic from here, but the article referenced there was a letter sent from my great-grandfather to C.H. Beach asking him questions about his service in the CEF, the response from C.H. Beach, and then the correspondence from my great-grandfather and Brigadier-General Crickshank. Lastly, it contained a letter written by my great-grandfather meant to publicly call out C.H. Beach on several of the things he said. It is possible that the reporter could have added some drama to fuel the fire.