John Edward Ashton 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers RIP

[brianmorris547]

On 10/10/2023 at 15:25, Mark Hone said:

Thanks very much for this information, Brian. Floyd wasn't present for what was arguably 55th Division's finest hour, in the April 1918 fighting on the Lys, and Norman Turner only became his servant in September, so I'm not expecting to come across a detailed account of Norman's DCM amongst Floyd's papers. It's a pity that there's no photograph of him in the Heywood Advertiser. 

Mark

I remembered that the photograph of John Ashton did not come up on the name search, I found it in the Heywood Advertiser by browsing through October 1918. I tried the same with Norman Turner and this is from the Heywood Advertiser 11/10/1918.

Courtesy FMP/BNA Heywood Advertiser. 

EDIT The same picture, but slightly clearer, of Norman Turner first appeared in the Heywood Advertiser 12/07/1918 but without the citation.

Brian

Edited 27 December , 2023 by brianmorris547
additional info

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Brilliant to find this photograph of Norman Turner and the article, Brian. Do we know who the mortally wounded officer was?

I had a look at your post of yesterday, but don't recognise any more of the names unless the Lawrence Greenwood is one of "my" Greenwoods mentioned earlier in this topic, and possibly J. Lord might be the Corporal Lord whom my GF mentions as being keen on patrolling/bombing in No Man's Land (alongside one of the Greenwoods) in the summer of 1915, as I see from his B103 that he, like my GF, went to France with the 2/5th right at the start on 3/5/1915.

It's not surprising that ny GF wouldn't have known many of the men in 1918 as a lot of water had passed under the bridge since he left the 2/5th in September 1916.

Pity that it turns out that "my" John Ashton hadn't had home leave shortly before his death.

[Mark Hone]

Fantastic. I'll post Floyd's account of Norman's actions at Canteleux Trench for which he was recommended for a Bar to his DCM.

[brianmorris547]

14 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Brilliant to find this photograph of Norman Turner and the article, Brian. Do we know who the mortally wounded officer was?

I had a look at your post of yesterday, but don't recognise any more of the names unless the Lawrence Greenwood is one of "my" Greenwoods mentioned earlier in this topic, and possibly J. Lord might be the Corporal Lord whom my GF mentions as being keen on patrolling/bombing in No Man's Land (alongside one of the Greenwoods) in the summer of 1915, as I see from his B103 that he, like my GF, went to France with the 2/5th right at the start on 3/5/1915.

It's not surprising that ny GF wouldn't have known many of the men in 1918 as a lot of water had passed under the bridge since he left the 2/5th in September 1916.

Pity that it turns out that "my" John Ashton hadn't had home leave shortly before his death.

Tricia

According to the Unit War Diary the Officer killed was 2/Lt C L Chorley. He is named in the WD of 164 IB on 27/04/1918 and the the WD of 55 Div A&QMG. 

There was an L Greenwood 3003 who went out to France on 04/05/1915.

Brian

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

14 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

According to the Unit War Diary the Officer killed was 2/Lt C L Chorley. He is named in the WD of 164 IB on 27/04/1918 and the the WD of 55 Div A&QMG. 

There was an L Greenwood 3003 who went out to France on 04/05/1915.

Thanks Brian

Tricia

[brianmorris547]

On 12/10/2023 at 19:04, Mark Hone said:

Fantastic. I'll post Floyd's account of Norman's actions at Canteleux Trench for which he was recommended for a Bar to his DCM.

Mark

I found Heywood Library History Section very helpful when I visited. They will be able to provide a better photo and report from the Heywood Advertiser than I got with my phone camera.

Cheers

Brian 

[Mark Hone]

By chance, I came across a 2009 thread about one of the soldiers who died as a result of the 21st September gas attack, Raymond Sutton. Apologies if this has already been picked up. 

 

[Mark Hone]

The later exploits of Private Norman Turner, from Heywood:

On the afternoon of 14^th September 1918 , 2nd Lt. Floyd took part in a ‘stunt’, involving A and B Companies of 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers to capture Canteleux Trench. This was on the last day of the Battalion’s stint in the front line and news of the attack was not enthusiastically received by the troops, whom Floyd reports were exhausted after a gruelling tour of trench duty.

Floyd led his platoon against the German trench which they had previously assaulted on 6^th September. They attacked and were driven off four times, eventually establishing a Trench Block close to their objective, a German strong point, with Lewis Guns posted to the rear. At 2-50 pm Floyd wrote a sitrep for his Company Commander, mentioning that his platoon had thrown about 200 Mills Bombs during the fighting:

‘My message was  taken to Noble (OC A Company) by Norman Turner and Jackson, one of my Lewis gunners. I awaited their return. After about an hour they returned with a message from Noble to the effect that we must push on. The strong point must be taken. So we had another try.’

This was also unsuccessful and in the process Sergeant Willmore, Lance-Corporal Halstead and Private Wood were wounded. Floyd sent another message via Turner and Jackson reporting the failure of the latest attack. Eventually, Floyd was told to hold the Trench Block until a relief force arrived at 8pm. Floyd notes that:

‘Lance Corporal Thomas and Norman Turner were simply splendid. Turner was the leading spirit in the whole show, rallying the men and handing up and throwing bombs. His friend Peter Thomas was superb. On one occasion Thomas got cut off from the rest of us and we were going to try and rescue him; but it was not necessary; he dashed through and got back. He was ‘first bayonet man’ throughout…I have recommended him for the DCM. I have recommended Lance Corporal Bowen for the MM. I wanted to recommend Turner for a Bar to his DCM but Noble did not want too many recommendations to be sent in’.

Sadly, Lance Corporal Peter Thomas MM was killed in fighting on 25th October, while Floyd was on leave. The papers accompanying his entry on the CWGC database show that he was buried as a ’soldat Anglais inconnu' by the French but later reinterred as ‘Believed to Be’ in Cabaret Rouge Cemetery, XVII.F.1. Interestingly, his CWGC record no longer mentions the ‘Believed to Be’.

(Extracts from ‘April to November’ by T.H. Floyd, serialised in the ‘Middleton Guardian’ newspaper after the war)

Edited 15 October , 2023 by Mark Hone

[brianmorris547]

Mark

I've just been reading the 2/5 WD in particular Bn Order 215 dated 14/09/1918, which refers to Windy Corner Intell Map no 5, and the WD of 164 IB re 14/09/1918 which has Brigade Order 220 dated 13/09/1918 and the report of Major Evans dated 15/09/1918. There is a sketch map attached but in the June WD there is Windy Corner Intell Map no 2 which shows the objectives for 14/09/1918 more clearly.

It also shows where 2/5 were on 21/09/1918 in A 14 a.

Brian

TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2923

Edited 15 October , 2023 by brianmorris547
typo

[Mark Hone]

Great, Brian. The bottom right hand corner of the map allows us to follow Floyd's platoon's attack on 14th September. In his sitrep to the Company Commander, Floyd gives the position of his objective, the German strong point, as A.17.b.20.30 and his Trench Block as A.17.96.16. Floyd began his advance with 3 Platoon up Plain Alley from a post at A.17.a.70.15 at 1-25pm, contacting the enemy at about A.17.a.90.20, where a barrage of stick bombs drove the Fusiliers back around 30 yds. They advanced again, reaching the trench junction at A.17.b.02.15. Floyd ordered one section under L. Cpl Thomas to the right and the other, under L. Cpl Halstead, to the left. Both parties were driven back by stick grenades after a few yards. Floyd pulled back to reorganise. Eventually, after a further unsuccessful attempt to advance on the strong point, Floyd was reinforced by another platoon under Sergeant Posnonsky and a position at the trench junction was secured for a time. Several casualties were inflicted on the Germans as they attempted counter-attacks, at least six by Private Martin with his Lewis Gun and two by Sergeant Whitmore with his rifle. However, the Fusiliers were eventually forced back yet again and set up a Trench Block, as described in the earlier post. A further attack, this time with Posnonsky's platoon advancing in the open on either flank , also failed to reach the strongpoint, again being held up by stick grenades together with  Machine Gun fire. Floyd's platoon suffered three men wounded and he consolidated on the Trench Block until he was relieved at 8 pm.

 

 

Edited 15 October , 2023 by Mark Hone

[WhiteStarLine]

Mark, click to enlarge:

Name: Mosaic AW
Sheet: 36C A15-30, G3-6
Scale: 1:5,000. Edition: 8-Sep-18
No.2 Squadron. RAF

[Mark Hone]

Wow, that is fantastic. Thank you very much. Floyd implies, in his account, that they got pretty close to the final objective, the strongpoint,  but it doesn't really look like that from the map/aerial photograph. 

 I am aware that, although still about the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers in the final weeks of the war, this thread has strayed somewhat from the original focus of Tricia's initial post. 

Edited 16 October , 2023 by Mark Hone

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I was away for a couple of weeks when the last few posts were added to this thread, and meant to post on my return to thank Mark for drawing attention to that other post started by @Ian Murphy as the great nephew of Raymond Joseph Sutton, and contributed to by @jiggyknight as the great nephew of Percy Frank Baynham, but time has a way of running away with you.

I also wanted to say that in my view it doesn’t matter at all that this thread has strayed from the point at which it started, remembering John Ashton; after all, all these men served, and fought, and sometimes died, together, and it seems fitting that they should also be remembered together. The fact that more names than just that of John Ashton are mentioned on the thread may also actually serve to assist in achieving its original objective (particularly as I understand that in due course it will be moved to “Soldiers and their Units”) because as people search for, and find, the name of a particular man who is mentioned in the thread, they will find not only the man who they were looking for, but also the names of his comrades, so that eventually more people will read the stories of John Ashton and the others than if each had their own individual threads.

Maybe also, although I intended to post this earlier, in the end it is fitting that I should have done so on Remembrance Sunday.

[Alisonmallen62]

Absolutely fascinating to read such a fitting remembrance thank you 

[brianmorris547]

Re John Edward Ashton @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy The 1911 Census shows, at 137 Adelaide St, Heywood:

Emily Ashton age 56 and her four sons. John E age 30, Herbert age 22, David age 20 and Arthur age 19. John, Herbert and Arthur were employed in the cotton industry and David was a leather worker.

The Heywood Advertiser 18/02/1916 pictured three Ashton brothers Arthur, who was serving in 9 Bn Lancashire Fusiliers and had been wounded at Suvla Bay, John (shown in the picture as Jack) and Herbert, who was serving in the County Palatine Artillery. Arthur is 3168 Arthur Ashton and Herbert is either L/24734 or L/10057 Herbert Ashton both of which have a disembarkation date of 28/11/1915. It seems that both Arthur and Herbert survived the war.

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, Brian. I now realise that I should have been referring to John Edward Ashton as Jack, not John. It is unsurprising, given the custom of the time, that my GF never refers to him other than by his surname, apart from when he mentions him for the very first time, when he gives him his full names of John Edward Ashton. In future I shall think of him by the name that he was most commonly known by in life, Jack Ashton.